You're tuned into Positively Terrible. I'm producer Dan, and each week my buddy Scott and I discuss surviving and thriving after trauma. It's a journey that started when Scott, his wife's fiance, and her boyfriend all walked into a bar. This week we're talking with Bill. Settle in my terrible listeners. This episode is going to be positively terrible. How's it going Scott? Bill? Welcome to the Terrible Studio. Hey guys. Hey Bill. Hey Dan. How are you man? I'm pretty good man. How are you doing this week? Oh, I'm doing alright. It's been kind of a weird couple of weeks since we recorded last. Yeah, it's been a long time. I feel like I haven't seen you in forever. I'm sorry. I can send you pictures in the intervening weeks if that's what you'd like. That would be helpful. Thank you. I'll do that. But it's been a weird couple of weeks. I have to say I've had my first post-marriage relationship kind of come to an end. It was mutual. I know everyone says that, but it was one that was very nice and fulfilling and helped me get kind of back out there. But from the beginning she'd ask me like, what are you looking for? And my answer at the time was, I don't know. It was that I wasn't trying to jump into any relationship, but I wasn't against something developing. And after a month and then some change maybe and some dates and getting high in a dog park and teaching me a few things, it was clear that she said she was kind of on the verge of developing some feelings. And I wasn't. I like her. I'm really, really glad I had some of my first experiences post-marriage with this woman. I think she's kind of a part of my story now in my recovery, but this wasn't time. Fair enough. So it's weird, I guess, to have another relationship end. I went 15, 18 years without relationships ending and now I've had two in the last three, four months. So it's going to increase exponentially is my guess. Right. And the more you do it, the more you're going to get used to that, Scott. Yeah. Well, I didn't feel bad about it. It was one of those things that I kind of felt that she was really starting to develop some feelings. And we talked a few times and she told me that she, you know, no, I'm okay. We can keep doing this. And then last Wednesday or something, she was like, yeah, I am. And it kind of left the door open for me to say, okay, yeah, I'm in and I couldn't. And it felt pretty terrible to be laying there with a woman and not be able to say, you know, yeah, I can do this because I would want to. She's a cool woman. I had some good times with her and I do feel bad about the timing. And that's what she said. She's like, the timing is terrible. I wish this was another time. And I told her the timing is terrible for one thing, but for me, it was kind of important for me and that I'm glad she was the one to be there at this time. Well, it sounds like it ended amicably at least. Yeah, it did. But now she wants some space and I was kind of hoping to go into this and have a cool new friend and I might still, but I don't really know what to do. She just said she wanted space. So I stopped texting and I guess you wait until they text you if they want space, but I don't know, maybe give it a month or something and I'll check in. Exactly. Time. Yeah. Yeah. It's cliche, but they say time heals all wounds and that's not necessarily true. But in this case, I could see it being true. Well, I think that time heals something in most cases. It doesn't necessarily heal everything, but I do think that you start to feel a little better after time. For sure. But Bill, thanks for coming today. Really appreciate it. This is what, maybe our third interview that we're conducting? Yeah, this is three or four. So really exciting stuff. You're getting into the ground level. We are not giving shares of our stock to our guests, but if you want half a Nutty Buddy that I got from Aldi, maybe. Yeah, no, if you get three friends to be guests, then you get a share. And every time each one of those friends brings on three friends, you'll get another share. Awesome. Right. I didn't know that was the rule, but if we get us three friends, then yeah. All right. This is really a pyramid scheme that often turns into podcasts about everything except for what we're here for. If ICP comes up during this podcast, it's come up in every other podcast so far. Really? Yeah, every other episode so far. Full circle. Yeah. I'm going to try to keep it out, but I guess I just brought them back. Before we get into anything, then, I will ask, what is your favorite ICP song? Oh, man. Obviously, I'm not a fan. There are some songs, and I can't name the exact tune, but I think the chorus was, Please don't hate me, I've been fucking your mom loose lately, please don't hate me, promised I would be a juggalo. And I remember Amit Chau, my best friend's brother, was an actual, like into that culture and put the face paint. He's like one of the first people to introduce me to a lot of different things, his older brother. I don't want to know what else he introduced you to. It sounds kind of scary. Well, I mean, you know, like recreational drugs for sure. Okay, okay. I wasn't trying to go that direction. I was making a joke with what I was talking about. I thought it was just a lot of really bad music is what you're trying to get at. Right. But yeah, I agree. Bad music. But I've been intrigued by their culture. I've watched their documentaries, and I've looked at like their, you know, the annual festival that they have. The Gathering. And I'm going to be honest, it's like watching a car wreck. You can't like take your eyes away from it. It's that it's kind of like that. Our goals for 2022 are to broadcast live from the Gathering. Oh, wow. That would be amazing. Well, the thing is that you brought up the culture and as much as we joke about ICP, that's kind of how it started as a topic on this podcast is building community and having a bunch of misfits with some things in common who find what they're looking for and find that community and that love, I guess I'll say, or hate. In that community, I'm not really sure what it is. It's all love, fam. It's all love. It's some faggot and some extreme emotion and bad music. And maybe a little bit of being mad at your parents. Yeah, well, I'm sure a lot of that. And it's something that I've never listened to. I have not watched this documentary. We will link to it on one of our pages so you can so the listeners can can watch this and I'll watch it as well. But you mentioned some recreational drugs, Bill, and just wanted to kind of start the conversation with you telling us why you're here today. Well, you invited me, which thank you both for inviting me. Thanks for coming, man. Really. No, I'm I'm really happy to be here. And it's been a long road getting to, you know, sitting into this seat right now. A lot of time spent, you know, regretting, you know, what happened yesterday and being an absolute fear of what's going to happen tomorrow. I could never spend a lot of my life just living in the moment in today. And that's what I do today is I'm living in the moment. Everything that's gotten to me this point is the reason why I'm here. So not much regrets about my life. Obviously, I've made a hell of a lot of mistakes, you know, just like anybody else. But I've definitely been through my share of struggles getting getting to this chair, you know, right now. And it's not really as a struggle today as it used to be. That's great to hear. And you mentioned a friend or a friend of a friend, your juggalo friend who introduced you to a lot of things that may not have been the best for you in your life. Yeah. And the Bill, I know, I guess there's a lot of your life I don't know. We've known each other for a long time. And I know that you've been in the program for at least several years. How long has it been? So in terms of years, it's been seven and a half years. But when anyone asks me, like when I go, I go to rehab centers to help guys, and it gets asked of me all the time, and I refuse to tell them. I tell them really what it is the truth. And I've been sober since 430 this morning. So the reason why I say that is because all that matters is today. I've had friends that had 15 years of sobriety and you know, drank. I've had friends that had 20 years of sobriety and drank. So it's important that I'm doing and living my best life today rather than being reliant upon past accomplishments and everything like that. So yeah, I'm a recovered alcoholic drug addict. I've got seven and a half years in a row. But honestly, you know, the only thing that matters right now is I've been sober since, you know, 430 this morning. 430. Did you get up at 430 this morning? Yeah, I'm an early bird guy. That's not an early bird. I've got words for it. And they're not very nice words. I think 430. What the fuck, man? Yeah. And it's weird. And you know, I work remotely as you guys both do. And I would think that maybe that would have changed my schedule up. But I've always been, since I was a little boy, you know, I was always up early watching the old shows. I probably watched the entire season, entire series of different strokes by waking up at 430 in the morning. Even with like Gomer Pyle and all those, you know. Gomer Pyle. Okay. Well, that's great to hear that you're up and at it every day. I mean, I'm sure that that's something that you probably weren't doing back when you were having problems with alcohol and substances. Can you tell us a little bit how you started to recognize that you were having trouble and needed to reach out or get help? Yeah. So that was a long time ago as well. So I first got introduced to like the 12-step programs when I was 21 years old. My first trip to rehab was in 2005. So I'm going to be 38 next month. I started recognizing at a pretty relatively early age that there was a problem. So my older sister had also recognized this through, I have also an older brother who's been, you know, probably qualifies to be in a 12-step fellowship in and out of prison, you know, homeless for the last 25 years. So I grew up my entire life watching him absolutely get his life destroyed, you know, visiting him in homeless shelters, visiting him in park benches, Salvation Army. He's at a point he was living in a shed with vagrant kids that were treating him like a pet dog, you know. And I loved him to death. And at 12 years old, my mom asked me like, are you going to ever drink and use drugs? And at 12 years old, I was honest and I said, absolutely not. I'm never going to drink and use drugs because I didn't want what was happening to my brother happening to me. So at the age of 12, I made that commitment and that commitment lasted till I was about 16 years old. And when I was 16 years old, I was not happy with my life. I was thinking about killing myself. I didn't have many friends. I wasn't doing well in school. I was really upset with my family life. I definitely believe I grew up in a dysfunctional family. And at the age of 16, you know, curiosity, I guess, killed the cat, so to say. And all that stuff and all those promises that I saw happen, you know, early on what my brother did, I, you know, I was a, I pushed that to the side because I wanted to see what this was all about. You know, dare all those, just say no to drug campaign that I grew up in the 80s and 90s. You know, it had an effect on me up until I was 16. I was like, screw it. And, you know, I smoked weed out of a little crushed pop can with the next door neighbor kid had, you know, some, it was called Ice 101. I don't even think it's available. It's like peppermint schnapps and when I drank it, you know, it tasted like shit and the alcohol tasted bad. But when I got past that stage and I felt the effects, you know, it blew me out of the water. It was a, like a psychic change for me at that moment where roughly 75% of the world is addicted or, you know, alcoholic. 75 or, you know, 15% I should say. So yeah. So 15% of the world is, you know, alcoholic drug addicts. So with me, alcohol and drugs did something to me that's abnormally different than most people out there. But for me, the more that I ever drank or did drugs, the more in control that I felt. In control? Yeah. The more that I drank, the more in control that I felt. The more that I drank, the better that I felt. So it was really the solution always to my problems. It was never, drugs and alcohol was never my problem. It was always my solution. Ever since when I was 16 years old that day when I was, you know, eating a brownie, laughing my ass off and my friend Eric's, you know, floor, you know, and so, but when I was 16 years old, at that moment, when I felt the effects, I'm like, well, I'm not going to like end up in jail like my brother. That's not going to happen to me. Right. You're 16. I'm 16. And not even a year later, not only did I end up in jail, I ended up in jail with my brother. Literally, in the same unit on a, he had a separate case and, you know, we're passing the phone back and forth talking to our mom. Can you imagine how she felt? Both of her sons in jail at the same time. And at that moment, forgive me for laughing. No, it is ironic. It is ironic and I get a laugh every time I share that because it's, the irony is just so, and at that moment, it still didn't dawn on me that maybe I was, it was going to get worse and at that moment, and I felt it wasn't still my problem. It was my parents. I need to get out of my parents' home. It's a chaotic lifestyle. My friends around here are the ones that are bad influences on me. If I move in with my older sister, who is like 16 years older than me, who's probably the black sheep of our family. She's lives on North Shore, you know, nice husband, nice, you know, there was a lot of things going good for her where if I moved into a calming environment, everything would get better. And when I moved in with her, it didn't get better. And by the time I was 21, I'm heading into my first detox. I never in a million years thought that would ever happen. So, I was introduced to the 12 Step Fellowship when I was 21 years old. And when I was in this rehab center, I was in rehab for like three months. And I got introduced to a lot of people that were in AA. When they would come into our unit, I'd look at them and I had to ask them like, you guys are drug addicts and alcoholics? Like they didn't look like it outwardly. But when you grew up and you watch TV and you see all the, all the, you know, what an alcoholic and drug addict is supposed to look like, you think something in your head and they didn't look like it, but they talked like me. I can identify with what they said. And at that moment, I still wasn't ready to get sober. I was 21 years old. I was just barely a month old of legal drinking age. But there was a seed that was planted with me at that point. So from that stage, I learned a lot about what it meant to be an alcoholic, what it meant to be a drug addict. I was, you know, I met a lot of great people. And for a year, I had a year of sobriety at that point. I went to a three month rehab center. I went to a three month halfway house immediately after that. And immediately after that, I went to a six month recovery home. And you know, I learned a lot about myself with the dopamines, how that affects your brain, like, you know, call phone, phone people, like, I learned a lot of informational pieces. But I wasn't really working on anything about me in the steps. Like I had a guy that I called a sponsor, but I wasn't truthfully, in what we call like a first step experience where I was desperate enough to change or I was really emitting defeat against, you know, alcohol and drugs. So within that year span, I managed to get a job that was taking me to another part of the country. I managed to get a girlfriend. I managed to get a, you know, a bank account, a nice car. I had my own place to live. I had a lot of like, my like, they say ducks in a row, right? There was a lot of good things externally happening. But there was still an itch in the back of my head that missed what alcohol and drugs did for me because so good. So you weren't drinking that whole time after you were out of the halfway house? Yeah, I wasn't drinking at all. It was completely dry until, until I was at Midway Airport. My girlfriend dropped me off. We just got into, she was crying. The distance was affecting her. And at that moment, I was by myself in Midway Airport. And I just passed this, you know, play this TGA Fridays or something. And it was like Jack Daniels was just blinking. And at that moment, I wasn't like a big, you know, whiskey drinker. I was mostly into like doing cocaine and at that beforehand when I was, you know, before I got sober. But for a moment, I'm like, man, a Jack and Coke would be great right now. And it was just like that. And next thing you know, I'm sitting at that barstool at this TGI Fridays and all, I had every reason in the world not to, you know, drink. I had every reason in the world not to screw up. And I've gone through all these treatment centers and everything and all this informational stuff completely out the window. And next thing you know, there's Jack and Coke, you know, in front of me. And so Bill, how easy or hard was it to make the decision or was it even a decision? It wasn't. So and I didn't know it at the time, but for alcoholics and drug addicts, a lot of people think they have a choice of whether they drink or not. But in reality, the definition of a real alcoholic and drug addict is they don't have a choice of whether they drink or not. The choice is usually already made for them. So there is their actions predetermined to getting to that point for sure. That meant not getting taken care of, being dishonest, living a life that is not in line with how the 12 steps have outlined for me. But up until that point, the alcoholic has really lost the power of choice of whether they drink or not drink. It's even before it comes in. So it was it just took that one little thought. And then I drank that Jack and Coke. And within a few months, the girlfriend was gone. The car was gone. The job was gone. Bank account was, you know, in rears. And it was all and that was all she wrote in a matter of a couple months after a year or so. Wow. In a couple months, it was gone. It was like I didn't even like stop. When you were in the airport drinking that Jack and Coke. What were you thinking? Nobody's gonna know. Nobody's gonna find out. Nobody's here. And I ordered a few more on the plane, looking down at the skylines of Chicago. And it's literally ironic. I'm like, looking down like nobody's gonna know. And looking back now, saying nobody's gonna know, I effectively became nobody to. Wow. So nobody knows except me. So I don't equal to anybody. You didn't count. I didn't count. So. Wow, Bill. Yeah, that's. I will jump in here and say that one of the things that I look back at in my life and the situation that I ended up with and with my wife was that I didn't matter. If I ever thought about myself, I couldn't have been in that situation for, you know, married for 15 years with her for 18 years. So that speaks really, really, really heavily to me when you say that you kind of just erased yourself that you didn't matter, you didn't count. And it was a subconscious thing. It wasn't. But looking back and evaluating, I'm like, man, I just became nobody. Right. I can't think of a time in my life where I had ever uttered the words or thought the words or decided that nobody's going to know where that actually turned out better. Like in general, now that now that I'm in my 40s, I think I understand that like. Whatever I'm doing, if it's a thing that I think I have to hide, then it's probably not worth doing at the moment. So that night you fly out of Chicago, you order a few more on the plane. When you wake up the next morning or when you get off the plane, or is there a point where you think I shouldn't have done that or I shouldn't be doing this? There is that because when I woke up, I'm sober, I'm hung over and I'm feeling a sense of guilt. But once there's a two part thing when it comes to alcoholics and, you know, it's that first thought that happens prior to the chemical going into your system. Then what happens when that chemical goes into your system, we refer to as like an allergy, like an abnormal reaction. So when that abnormal reaction happens, there's very little that stops that. Sometimes you know, going to jail will make that stop. Sometimes my wallet will make it stop. You know, a rare occasion I wake up in like Elburn, Illinois, and I don't know anybody that, you know, and I'm like, I don't know where I'm at or how to scam anyone. And then sometimes my body physically, you know, our bodies physically cannot take any more alcohol and drugs that will make me stop. The one thing that says stop 1000 times, but I can't stay stopped on it alone is my brain. So yeah, I'm like, man, this has got to stop. I'll stop tomorrow. And then when tomorrow comes, I'll stop tomorrow, right? I'll hold off. And when I have to go back to, you know, hanging out with with the family, I'll stop before Thanksgiving. And it's just, it starts like that. And it Bill, I think we can all relate to that. And I'm sure there's a lot of judgment that that comes in your direction, or maybe not now because you've been successful for as long as you have. But there's such a stigma with drug addiction and alcoholism. And we but we all do that. I'm going to work out tomorrow, Bill. Yes, I swear, man, I am going to work out tomorrow, probably not going to eat McDonald's tomorrow and never again. So we all do it. And it just so happens that your addictions have much greater repercussions, not just for you, but for your family and and even probably people you don't know. And I'm going to ask you a question. You said waking up in Elburn or some community and not knowing anyone and not knowing how to scam or not having a scam. Was scamming people part of your MO? Yeah. And it can happen in a lot of forms. You know, sometimes I would be mean and, you know, just, you know, angry to get what I need or I'll be the kindest guy in the world, whatever, whatever the story had to be. I'm going to be that person because you guys both have favorite actors, right? Of course. What's your favorite actor, Dan? Yeah, I could I could I could picture him. De Niro. OK, we'll go with De Niro for the moment. That's a good one. How about you, Scott? I don't watch movies. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Let me say. Mia Khalifa. Good, good example. Great choice. But yeah, you know, De Niro is a good is a good example. For me, it's Daniel Day Lewis. So Daniel Day Lewis, you've all watched him in some movie, Milasa Mohicans. He's that guy that played the left foot and like literally had to paint, you know, with one one leg. And he was played Abraham Lincoln. And he played, you know, the Bill the Butcher in Gangs of New York. Whatever the role is, he has to be that character. He is that character throughout the whole movie, even when outtakes like a method actor. Guess who else is a great actor? Bill. So I became an excellent, excellent actor. I could be very disingenuous, be very deceitful. I could. And a part of being a good actor is you got to believe it in your head. So lying to myself was a big part of it and believing my own lies and the stories that you have to have behind it. And yeah, it was a big part of, you know, and the people that I scammed and you mentioned it was, you know, people that were closest to me. Unfortunately, that's what alcohol and drug addiction is. It engulfs everybody else. I don't know how to ask this question. And this might not even be a question that you can answer. But how do people how long does it take for people to start realizing that that's what you're doing to them? It depends on the person. So there's a lot of, you know, my family members, you know, they loved me. You know, they they were there for me. They want to believe my lies enough to because they want to see me do well. There would be so many times when I would raise up their confidence that, oh, maybe he's going to get it this time. And this is the worst thing I was doing to my my family and my friends is that I would get well for a little bit. I'd raise their confidence up. And the next thing you know, I'm ripping the carpet from underneath their feet. And I would raise their confidence up. And it took, you know, at a point where like my sister, who is like one of the most closest people to me in my life, she had to see actions of me and my son. She she I couldn't really speak to her or her or my her children, my niece and nephew for three years. I couldn't see them in person for three years because she knew what I was saying, but she needed to see my actions. So and that was after you lived with her for a number. Yeah. After I lived with her for a number of years. And when I did get sober, so I literally had gone through three years of sobriety and having to kind of show her actions that I'm actually doing well before she was going to actually really trust me again with a lot of things. So and she in the past, she did, you know, she, you know, trust me in her home, you know, watch her children, all things that I, you know, definitely took her for granted and and things that she had to take away from me and she had to protect herself. And I don't blame her, you know. You mentioned cocaine earlier. Yeah. We focused a lot on alcohol. Yeah. How did you end up trying and becoming addicted to cocaine? Yeah, it comes back to our jugular friend. I suspected as much as always does. My best friend who I grew up with, he was his house was a place where we could safely do drugs. We could smoke weed and drink. His father didn't care. And he had an older brother that was a couple years older than us. And he he was always like into, you know, smoking weed. And we're just sitting there one day and this is early 2000s. I think we're playing GameCube or something, smoking weed. He's like, hey, guys, you want to try something? And we're like, well, and he brought in cocaine and me and Matt are like looking at and like nervous. And, you know, when someone introduces cocaine to you, you're immediately going back to dare, whether it's either consciousness or consciousness. And you're thinking about, you know, every cartoon character in the world telling you not to do it. That still happens to me. And yeah. And and and still we were like, OK, we'll try it. And when we first try it, you know, it was nervous. But then just like when I first tried weed, when I first tried alcohol, that nervousness disappeared and it was like, whoa. So was it you or your friend who kind of decided first or do you think you both came to that? We both came back and like, what do you think? What do you think? And we're like, whatever, let's try it. So when you try, try cocaine or tried any new drug, was it more or less immediate that this shit had you? I would say so. So one drug I will say that didn't have me was hallucinogens. So like mushrooms, acid. Every time I took that stuff, if those were the only drugs available on the planet, I might not be a drug addict because every time I took it, I thought I died. Like every time I took it, I literally thought I was dying. Like I was dead and I freaked out. And it never worked. It was never something that worked out for me. Every time. How many times did you have to learn this lesson before you quit? Four or five, you know, maybe half a dozen. So was it hard? I mean, was it that just there was a drug there so you wanted it? Yeah, I was whatever could get me out of right here right now, I'm cool with. Now I never did heroin. I was just never around it. But I've done everything else. So I can't help but know. Is that the only reason you think? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I'm not originally from the Chicago area. Wasn't something that was super big in the community I'm from. But I know I've done, you know, I've done, you know, opiates like I've done Oxycontin, which is basically synthetic, you know, heroin. But I've never shot, intravenously shot a drug into my vein. So it's basically dumb luck that you haven't done that. Yeah, it's pretty much not that like that was a hard line for you. And most of my friends have that I know that are in, you know, in the program. Most people that I've met and most people that I've helped actually are, were addicted to heroin. Do you have an opinion on like, what the is there a worst drug? Yeah, it's, it's a hard, hard one to say. The most dangerous one, if you were asked my opinion is alcohol. It's the one drug that you can actually die from detox off of it. So I'm not saying you can't die from it. It's just very rare to die from detoxing from cocaine. It's really rare to die from and you're not going to die from detox from heroin. It's very uncomfortable. There's a lot of pains in it, but you're not going to die from it. But alcohol you can definitely die from, from that. And it's another thing about it. It's very, it can impair your judgment rapidly, you know, depending on body weight and everything like that. Alcohol and then it's legal in most areas of the world. It's it's one of the, I would say alcohol is probably the worst. And cigarettes too, man. That's not really labeled under what we're speaking about. Dude, cigarettes are just a waste. Like it really is. I spent so much money on cigarettes and honestly, what a waste. I didn't even enjoy it. I just enjoyed thinking I was cool. Well, you weren't and you're still not. I know it, but we can, we can find something to make you cool. Telling people you have a podcast is definitely the way to make them think you're cool. I mean, just go out on the street, Dan. I'm going to get myself a little picket sign and walk around and meet some people. I have a podcast. No, no, Dan, you're one of the coolest guys I've ever met. Oh, we've got rules against that, Bill. No positive words towards Producer Dan during the show. You're cool too, Scott. Well, thank you. I know that I am, but he's the host. Producer Dan works a little bit harder if you just kind of withhold that approval. But his voice is soothing, you know. What about mine? I'm glad you think so. Thank you. He does have a nice voice. He at times is a little, he talks like, no, I'm going to say something nice. I mean, we've already, it's already too late. But he sometimes talks like he's not a very good talker. And then he comes on here and I don't hear the filler words. I don't hear the ums and the uhs. I'm over here like an asshole, like, uh, Bill? You don't hear those because I do the editing, Scott. Oh, trust me. I'm listening for them right now. And I hear them when they come out of my mouth. But you've talked about detox and you just said that alcohol detox can kill you. What was it like when you detoxed? It was obviously very uncomfortable. It was, it was scary. And where were you? I was in a detox center. I was on the north side of the city and it was very uncomfortable. I wouldn't say I was about to die or anything like that. But in my brain, you know, obviously the chemicals of alcohol and drugs can kill us. But we, we die a lot mostly because of our mental state and where we're at. I can't tell you how many guys I've met that died sober because they killed themselves. So the thoughts of like killing myself were there really strongly during detox and for a couple of months, even while I was initially like, like through this sobriety time, working the steps, because as I mentioned, alcohol and drugs was always my solution. And when you take that solution away and I don't have that like replacement, you know, right there and then, cause you don't get that replacement instantaneously. Well some people have, it's called like a spiritual experience, which is rare, like out of the blue. You know, I had to go through a lot of processes to get to that point where I was mentally okay and man, I'll tell you the day before I got sober, it was like the worst day of my life. It was the worst, worst day of my life. And it had to, it had to have been the worst day of my life if it was going to work, if it was going to be like great and it was going to be, everything was cool, I probably would still be out there, you know, drinking. So this is rock bottom. Rock bottom. Really, really at the lowest part of my life. And there's a few parts of my childhood that I could equate to my feelings back then, but at this point it was really low mentality. So are you saying that for most addicts or for you that rock bottom is a very real thing that you had to hit before it was time? I would say so. And there's a lot of people that have different types of bottoms. So a lot of people associate, oh if I go to prison, it's going to be where I end, or if I get five DUIs. It doesn't have to be like that. It's a feeling inside. And with me, I was absolutely desperate. So this time around, the 12 steps was the last house on the block for me. It was either that was going to work or I was just going to go on to the bitter end and just, you know, die. So this was really at a point where I was desperate enough for some change in my life. Was it your choice to go? Yeah, I made that decision to go. And I think that's a big part of it. You can't really force anyone to go. I don't think tactics of, you know, interventions can work. You know, it can get someone to a point. But ultimately, if the person has no desire to stop, it's really pointless trying to convince them to do something that they're, it won't work. But for me, it was a point where, you know, there was some pushing because of, you know, some people around me. But I had an honest desire for something to change. So how long were you feeling that desire? Was it, did it just kind of come on or was it in the back of your head for a long time or forever even? So, so back when I first got introduced to the 12 steps, I've obviously met people in rehab and stuff. And I actually met my sponsor today. We were both patients in the same rehab in 2005. So I saw him literally come in day one before he did any, he had track marks up and down his arm from shooting heroin. And I saw over the course of the year that we got to know each other and became really great friends, like really close, great friends. I saw his life change, like literally really changed, not the bullshit that I was doing about getting a job. Like I saw him making a difference in his life. And I was like, man, if I'm ever really serious about it, I'm going to go ask that guy for help. And sure as shit, seven years later, I, I reached out to him and asked for help. And, and I'm a believer in God and this is how I believe in it in my life that, you know, he at that point he was living in Chicago. He had a place that helps guys like me and I was living in living in the city at that point and it just was meant to be. And I reached out to him for help. And Bill, I mean that gave me goosebumps. It really did. The idea that there was something there and for all of those years, even though I don't know if you had contact with him over those years or anything. It was the one benefit of Facebook. So growing up for us, I mean a little bit of me, there was not much cell phone use. So you'd go out, maybe use a house phone. There wasn't a, maybe there was AOL chat or Yahoo chat and stuff like that. So I just got into Facebook and I didn't have his number per se, but I, we were friends on Facebook and every now and then he would reach out to me and be like, Hey, how you doing? What's going on? And I tell him, Oh, I'm good. You know, I, you know, I obviously reference how we met and be like, Oh, you know, I think I really panicked back, back in 2005. I think I overreacted. I don't feel I'm an alcoholic. And he's like, okay. And he was very nonjudgmental. You know, did he know though? I mean, I think in the back of his head, so us being in AA, we're not, it's not our business to like qualify it, like identify, make people, you know, or diagnose them ourselves. So there's very little point in doing that. But you know, us in the circumstances that we met, he definitely wasn't surprised when I called him when I asked for help. He was like, man, and he's from another country. And he's like, man, I've been praying for you to one day call, call me. And that's what he said. That's cool. Now I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, cause I know you from work. Yeah. Um, we met and you know, we've been, we've been acquaintances for 10 years. We met at work. We, we sat not far from each other. We probably had lunch together once or twice a month. We've been social a couple of times and that was a little over 10 years ago. Um, and I think if I remember the timeline correctly, when I left that job, you got sober after I left. I believe so. I think that's correct. 2014. Yeah. So it was right around the same time. So we were still in the old office. Yup. The bill I know, um, that I have the strongest memories of like is right about this time. Yeah. Which is very interesting. And I'm putting those puzzle pieces together. Cause you didn't seem, I mean, you made some questionable judgment calls on occasion, but you did not seem to be a person that was a mess to me. Yeah. And I'll say that I did not know that either. Um, I can't, I mean, it was a long time ago and it goes back to what I was just talking to you guys about who's your favorite actor. Right. So obviously when I'm at work, I had to really put on a show. Um, you know, family members that I work for and everything like that. Um, there's a couple of people that experienced, you know, at work experience in my drinking and you know, disappearing and I can't tell you how many times I was blacking out towards those last couple of years of my drinking. Really? Um, I was just reading the paper. Some guy went missing in river north. Um, yeah. Hundred and fifty thousand dollars raised for this kid already in a matter of a week. And I can't tell you how many times I did then that probably was like, it could have been the first time that's ever happened to him. And the first time he blacks out, he's absolutely disappeared. And I, I countless times blacking out, walking into, you know, bars and not remembering losing stuff, waking up or yeah, yeah, it was, um, towards the end it was really bad, but I used to romantically call that time traveling, which it turns out is rather dangerous. Yeah, it was, um, I was living in a wicker park towards the end. So there's a ton of bars, real easy neighborhood to stumble around. It was like I woke up in a dream when I first moved there. It was like, I've arrived. This is it. Literally. You know, I was living in, in the burbs at the point when I moved here. I'm like, man, and that was like your mid twenties, every mid mid twenties and every bar from Damon to Ashton, I was kicked out of. And every time I would walk in there, I'd get a glare from the security guard and they'd be like, listen, you can have one and that's it. And like, I'd get, I'd get like, there'd be a security guy from the 4am bar that was around the block for me. And he would see me like, you know, Hey Bill, you doing okay today? One day I was limping because I fell down their stairs and I don't even remember that. So it was, yeah, blanking out was a big part of my story. It doesn't necessarily qualify as someone just because you blackout doesn't make you an alcoholic, but, um, it was a big part of what was happening to me towards the end. Right. Do you look at the culture of drinking? I mean, in this city, it's, it's pretty bad in this city. I have your, you are correct, but I have very mixed emotions about it personally. When you say culture, what do you mean? Um, the amount that people drink the Friday night, Saturday night, Thursday night, we're going out and getting wasted the St. Patrick's day. Oh shit. That's going to be an entire day of getting wasted. Yeah. And I'm with you when I think that when you say that alcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs out there. Absolutely agree. But I like it. And I do it. I do it sometimes irresponsibly. I woke up in my garage recently, that was a fucked up experience. And it sounds like one that you have had before. I'm glad it wasn't my garage you woke up in, but I've just always, I've never really approved as much as I do it. I look at the culture of drinking and it's like, man, this ain't right. I, until recently I have almost 100% totally approved. And I worked, you know, after we worked together, I worked in, in, in breweries and worked in the beer industry. And now I'm, I hesitate to use the word sober, but I have not drank for four months. Next week will be four months. Oh yeah. It's, it's, it's great. It is awesome. I, I spent a lot of time listening and learning about the 12 steps. I never, I never went through the 12 steps. I, yet, I'm, I'm not opposed to it. It's strange for me cause I don't, I don't personally currently identify. It doesn't feel like I've earned the word sober. It just feels like I haven't drank and I have chosen not to drink, not to drink for the time being. Which is very interesting. And it's been totally new to my life. I'm, I'm, you know, I spent 20 years as a very regular drinker. So it's, you know, I'm learning how to be, coming out of the pandemic and not drinking and starting to be around people sometimes is very interesting. And I'm a lot less outgoing. I really have to stop and think about pushing myself to go talk to people I don't know when it's a whole lot easier for me when I'm socially lubricated. Yep. And that's the culture. Right. Oh, it's totally the culture. And do you think that the culture allows people to hide behind their alcoholism? I think some people can get lost into that. So I'm not against the institution of drinking at all. If I was non-alcoholic, I definitely would have two beers. You know, I actually, I loved smoking weed. Like if, if I could safely smoke marijuana, I would be doing it. But every time that I would smoke weed, it would take me on to, you know, the next thing that I really want. So culturally, I'm not against it, but you can definitely hide in it. But the thing is, is that there's a lot of hard drinkers out there that are not alcoholic. There's a lot of people out there that use a lot of drugs. They're not drug addict. So the difference between those types of drinkers and myself is given sufficient reason, they can stop or moderate, like not on a non-spiritual basis, like, like I had to, like sometimes a loss of job will tell someone, hey, I've had enough, or the wife threatens to like leave or you get a notice that you're going to go to jail if you do this. And that is a sufficient reason for people to stop. For me, I've had, I would never have been married, but I've had all those type of consequences and those all failed to keep me, you know, in shock. So, but yeah, binge drinking, it's, it's big, but also if we were to just eliminate that, what would do that due to that in the communities of, you know, people that rely on, you know, the bars and the restaurants and, and the advertising surrounding it. So yeah, it's a, it's a good question. You know, obviously it's, it's not safe to binge drink and you know, the, the thought and me personally, I have a biased opinion, like two drinks, like how many people just have one, one and a half or two, but surprisingly there's people that are. My girlfriend, we live together. I literally go to my fridge constantly and there's a half empty 12 ounce hard cider in there and I'm like, what is this? I almost knocked it over. I'm like, what is this? And she's like, Oh, I'm saving it for later tomorrow. And I'm like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. The only time, the only, and that's why I'll know. And that's why I know I'm safe. My girlfriend will never be an alcoholic because the only time there was half empty, you know, cans in front of me, you know, I'm leaned over, sucking my own dick. You know, I'm just like, you know, literally like, you know, passed out. So there's people out there that literally get that tipsy out of control feeling the more they get, they get that stop sign for me, the more that I drink, the more in control that I feel. And it's always go when that stuff enters my system. And it's always more, the more I drink, the more in control that I feel. So obviously early on when there's young 20 year olds first experiencing alcohol for the first time and they're getting that experience and they get that feeling, everyone gets that feeling, everyone in the world can be addicted to opiates, right? You take enough opiates, anyone can physically get addicted. It happened to a lot of guys in Vietnam. You know, people, a lot of guys came back from Vietnam addicted to heroin, but most of those guys were able to just go through detox and they were cool. They didn't need to go on 12 steps. They just had to eradicate that substance from them and they weren't going to it. There's something else that pulls an alcoholic to alcohol and drugs. And it's more than just what it does, it's just, it's that solution that I was talking to you about before. It's something, there's something that magically happens to me that I don't think alcohol and drugs was designed to do. Right. Bill, this is helpful in framing things for me because for a long time, when I look at the culture of, of drinking and binge drinking that we have, I do think, or I have thought in the past anyway, that, oh, we've got a lot more alcoholics than we really say, but it sounds like what you're saying is that it's that addiction, that draw, that inability to stop and the consequences that it has on your life is really where that line is between this person just fucking drinks a lot and this person's an alcoholic. And I just know it in my own personal life. My next door neighbor was the exact same age as me. You know, he did the same amount of drugs, drank the same amount, literally two months older than me. However, though the big difference between him and I, he could stop on a dime. It doesn't matter. He's like, oh, I can't do it for six months. I got to drop clean because I got this union gig. He can do that. For me, union gig, I'm trying not to go back to jail and lose my life, you know, and I can't stop because of that. So I think it's all dependent upon the person and it's hard to say. There's a lot of studies that say it's genetic predisposition, not necessarily if your parents were somewhere down the line, you may have been born genetically of being predisposed to alcoholism. I don't know. I just know I put myself in all these situations and I crossed that line and there is probably a point I definitely could have gone this, you know, one direction and another direction and I definitely went in the direction of continuously drinking and feeling that solution of what was given to me. Yeah, and I think that there's two, there seems to be two definitions of alcoholism floating around and, you know, there's like the AA definition. I've heard people that have been through the program that describe it exactly as you have. And by that definition, I think it's arguably maybe I'm not an alcoholic, arguably. And then there's the definition that seems to be thrown away by or thrown around by like the typical medical community where if you consume more than three drinks a night, you know, five times a week, then you are by definition an alcoholic. And that's a very, very, very different definition. Yeah. So AA's literature, there's a book called, that's nicknamed the big book. So it's called, it's just called Alcoholics Anonymous. So that's where the fellowship got its name from. They were trying to figure out what to call themselves and they're like, well, let's just call ourselves after the book that we published. So that's where that came from. So there's a point where they use stories and they use examples where they want the reader to determine for themselves. There's never a place where it just point blank says, if you do this and this, you're an alcoholic. There's one part though, that comes the closest and it's a simple sentence. If you honestly want to, and you find you can't not quit entirely, or if when drinking you have little control of the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. And they use that term probably. So when that sentence was broken down to me, it was broken down as to two questions. He's like, Bill, when you honestly want to, do you find you cannot quit entirely? So he read that as a question and I could say, yes. Bill, when drinking, do you have little control of the amount you take? Yep. Well, Bill, you're probably alcoholic. So we talk a lot. You're talking about Alcoholics Anonymous and you've also talked about other addiction. Did you quit everything at the same time? Well, I didn't quit cigarettes, that's for sure. And I didn't quit, like what we kind of list as selfish sex, I didn't quit that. So early on, I still had issues. Obviously, I was smoking cigarettes and I was really tackling dating websites, you know, finding women. And what I mean by that, I'm going on websites, not reading their profile and I'm swiping right, just aimlessly swiping right until I'm getting a hit or a match. And I'm not interested in who they are, I'm just seeing who it is. And then, you know, food definitely became a replacement for a time where I'm eating a lot of chocolates and sweets. And at that point, I don't recommend quitting everything immediately. If you smoke and drink, I wouldn't recommend quitting smoking and drinking. Like there's some harm reduction that can go along with that. Yeah, I mean, it just can make it harder than it really necessarily needs to be. It's inarguable that like eating extra chocolate is okay when you're no longer drinking to blacking out. Like that's better than the other. Absolutely. It's night and day. And if you're doing more than one thing, trying to quit more than one thing at once, do you think that there's a higher probability that once you fail with one, you just fail with all of them? There's a lot of, I believe, the same. I think that I've seen that happen a lot. So what hurts a lot of the new people that I come across with and people that I've met, it's my sponsor labels it like this pink and green, my friend. It's the number one thing that takes down new guys is, you know, women and getting money. So a lot of guys also go strongly at getting money. They like go head first into, you know, into their work. They try to like replace the thoughts with getting really, really, really busy. And that's also a recipe for disaster too. So I'm not like that, but it was a lot, you know, trying to chase women. And I was able to recognize that early on, you know, thank goodness. Otherwise, you know, I wouldn't be sitting here. So, but yeah, cigarettes, you know, I, it took a long time for me to get ready to quit that, but I've quit that too. So which has been great. You've done well, Bill. And that's a fact. I have said more than once that probably not to your face, but I'm proud of you. We used to go to Cubs games and Bill would always have his phone on and answer every fucking call. And why was that? And you guys call him because this dude is part of this program. So does that, is that, does that make you a sponsor or does that just make you someone who's available, successful and available for people? Yeah, it's sponsorship, but it's also just my fellow friends, you know, that are, you know, reaching out, saying hi, or, you know, they do ask for advice and, you know, I'm also on the other end too. So a big part of what I do today is, is definitely helping, you know, new people through the door. It's something that it's something I have to do, but it's something I, you know, enjoy doing too. When you say you have to do it, what's that mean? So step, so there's 12 steps, obviously in step 12, having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics. And then the other part of that is also practice these principles in all my affairs. So not only do I have to be out there trying to help people through the 12 steps, I got to continue to do it too. So if I'm not doing it, I have no business helping people. But a big part of it is I have to keep giving it back. So my sponsor had only one ask of me when he took me through, he's like, dude, one, one night a week, you're going to be spending trying to find guys that are dying. All I ask is one night a week. I don't care how many of these meetings you go to. I don't care about you, you know, making coffee, you can do all that stuff and set up chairs, but you got to be out there trying to find guys that are dying one night a week for the rest of your, your life as long as you're doing this. And, and it was pretty simple ask, you know, and it's become more than just one night, but it's, you know, that's what he said to me. And what's that mean? Like, are you, are you going to homeless camps looking? I go to treatment center. So there's a treatment center that I go to in the city every Friday evening and I go there and I kind of talk about our literature. Usually I try to help guys qualify them to see if they are actually alcoholic and drug addict. You'd be surprised. There's so many people that been to AA meetings and they don't even know what it means. They don't even know what alcoholism is. So nine times out of 10, most guys don't even know what it is. And they're identifying as an alcoholic and I'll ask, do you know what that means? And they'll say some stuff that they heard on TV or some other, you know, schmuck said in some meeting somewhere. And so a big part of what I'm doing is it's mostly planting seeds and rarely finding a guy that actually wants to do this. So most guys don't, but a part of me going there is also helping me in a way. And yeah, like you said, planting seeds, letting people know that this is here when they're ready for it. Absolutely. I think that's really important. And that's all it is. And I don't go there as like forcing it upon them and non-judgmental way. And if there's some guys that are interested in doing it and if we get to a point and they say, I don't want to do this anymore, it's no problem. It's you're free to come and go as you please. But if this is going to work, there's certain things that you're going to have to do. So well, from a mostly identified atheist, I'd like to say that, I mean, without a doubt, you're doing the Lord's work. Sounds like you're doing it in a pretty Christlike manner. And I appreciate that tremendously. And Bill, are there other ways without the program that you're familiar with that people use to successfully get sober? Not that I know about. I know there's other fellowships out there and I know some people have gone to like, you know, Scientology. Some people have used other techniques. There's 101 ways probably to get well. The only way that I could talk about those is what worked for me. So I also go there and I'm not here being this is only house on the block, you know, but I'm not one that's familiar with that worked in the effect that it worked for me. So when you see people in your personal life, so not when you're out looking, but when it's someone who's close to you or maybe not even that close, but you know, you interact, is there anything you do or you can do or recommend others do? It's hard. It's hard when they're close. So as I mentioned, my brother probably qualifies to be in AA and I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of guys in AA and working, trying to talk with him. And it's the most difficult thing on the planet of doesn't even compare. So my neighbor definitely, I think qualifies to be in AA constantly. He's passed out on his front porch, going back and forth early in the morning to get drinks. I won't approach him with this because it's pretty close quarters. So if we were to get down and do the work and most guys don't do this, then he's got to see me every day. And I don't want to do that to him. You know, and every time he's coming home, he's going to feel guilt about, you know, not doing this. And who knows, maybe it gets really personal and a lot of guys don't know about me personally, you know, for quite some time. They don't know how long, how many years I've been sober. They don't know where I live. It's very autonomous up until a point where they get where they start to get a little understanding of who I am. It's about safety and it's also about, you know, kind of not exposing them too much to something that they don't know anything about yet. So, but when it's people that are close, I'll make an approach, but I won't necessarily, you know, say who I am right away, you know, not to necessarily scare them off and stuff like that. So there's a couple of people that I've met over the course and I've talked to them, but it's difficult when they're close quarters, you know, it's hard. It can be a conflict of interest for sure. Do you, when you do, you said that there's been a couple of people. Do you broach the topic with them or do you see or feel that they're ready for the conversation? I try to see and feel if they're ready. So anytime I'm approaching anybody, sometimes I go on what they're called 12 step calls and we don't talk about it right away. You know, we'll talk about anything under the sun, you know, music and, you know, sports or whatever they're into. And then we kind of slowly get into, Hey, you know, how's your drinking been? It'll be simple like that. You know, and if they do like, I don't, I can't recall when someone actually approached me and asked me for help when they were actual friends. But if they would, you know, I treat it like I would treat anything, any, any other situation, you know, I'd, I'd first gauge, you know, how their drinking is, you know, literally, you know, is it, is it something that is necessarily out of control? Have they tried stopping on their own before? So there's been times when there's a part in the book that suggests people to drink. So they're like, if you're not completely sure of your alcoholism, step over in the nearest bar room and try to control drinking. I don't recommend that to heroin addicts, guys. I don't recommend, you know, you do step over in the nearest dope house and try, cause you could die instantly from, you know, from that stuff. So it's become increasingly dangerous. Fentanyl is almost all you don't need to be a drug addict to die. Alcohol is a little bit different. It's a slow killer in a way. Right. But yeah. Are most of the people that you work with, do they have more than one addiction? I treat them kind of like the same, you know, I'll identify as an alcoholic and a drug addict, but it's basically saying the same thing twice. So alcohol, alcoholics anonymous, I know works for people that identify as heroin as being their drug in need. I'll never use that term drug of choice because I didn't have a choice of whether I drink or not drink. So their drug in need, if it's heroin, I know it works cause it worked for my sponsor. If it's crack cocaine, whatever it is, it doesn't really, it's irrelevant. But I know people that are very cross-a-dick-a-way gambling. There's a lot of gamblers that are in, in AA, which is an entirely different type of being. It's a 12 step fellowship, but it's a different type of triggering in terms of like when we speak about allergic reaction. Like those, like they used to come into our rehab. There was a gamblers anonymous would come up and they would share. And some of those guys couldn't even go to like Chuck E. Cheese, like watching the bells ring and stuff like that. And like, I can't identify with that personally, but I can like relate to something like that. Like they can't even do stuff, you know, stuff like that. For me, I can't, you know, even have like the smallest amount of alcohol, you know. Well, Bill, I will say that I've spent time with you around alcohol. You've offered to buy me beers at baseball games. Do you feel a draw when you're in those situations still? That's a good question. So today I'm recovered. So I got up to, you know, I've definitely passed step 10 and I'm recovered. I don't think about drinking. I don't think about not drinking. So when I see alcohol, I see it as a substance, but it isn't like, it's like any other allergic reaction now. So anyone that's allergic to shellfish, obviously they wouldn't eat at Red Lobster, right? Anyone that's allergic to penicillin, they're going to be emphatically saying that when they go to the doctor, Hey, do not give me that stuff. And for me, I've been brought to that same sanity when it comes to this, like, Hey, it's for you, but it isn't for me. So of course I had to do some things to get to that point. I couldn't be around it, you know, right away. I had to get to a point in the 12 steps where I'm recovered, but it's not like a draw to me anymore today. Do you remember when you realized that it wasn't a draw anymore? Yeah. So sometime after step five. So the fifth step is a part where I share the nature of my wrongs with someone else and God's in that room as well. And you know, I said a lot of things that I never thought I'd ever share with somebody, thought stuff that I would take to my grave and I actually shared it. And there was some thing that I was still holding onto at that point. And it was the anger to my, my father. So I had a murderous type of hatred for my dad. It was beyond, you know, I didn't want him to be a lot, you know, I had no intentions of him being in my life. So after I did my fifth step, there's a part in step six and seven, if you haven't been willing to do something, pray till it comes. And I was praying for it to come. And I'm like, I just want to get past this. I want to get past this, but I can't. It's like forcing yourself to move past an incredible amount of trauma. So at one point I'm on, I'm living in a sober living home and the subject came up of a God on social media. And at this point, Oh, I'm some expert now and I'm going to be talking about it. And at that moment I had my first spiritual experience there. And in an instant, for whatever reason in the world, the hatred for my dad disappeared right there in that. And I can't explain it in any other form other than God of my understanding came into my life. And ever since then, I never thought of having a drink since ever since then, you know, I started, I had to go on and continue to the rest of the program. But ever since then, um, the thought of drinking hasn't returned. And I'm not saying like I haven't had, you know, dreams before about drinking or dreams before about stuff like that. But there'd be points early in sobriety when I'd be dreaming about doing drugs and I'd wake up and like, man, that sucks. I wish I was, that was real right now in the rare occasions when I do have a dream, it's like, you know, during the dream I'm like, how am I going to explain this to my girlfriend? How am I going to talk? It's like a complete panic. And when I wake up, I'm like, Oh, thank God that wasn't real. I was going to ask if it was a good dream or a nightmare. Anytime it happens, it's a nightmare. And I'm like, I'm definitely more grateful than when that stuff, you know, is not real, you know, I have like many versions of that with cigarettes. Oh really? Yeah, where I'll wake up and like, I'll feel like so guilty in the dream. Yeah. Oh my God, I can't believe I'm smoking again. You said you mentioned in step five, telling people things that you never thought you'd tell them. And I am going to selfishly maybe, it's my podcast, talk about me for a second. And that the day after I had met my wife's fiance and her boyfriend, players two and players three, I had a decision to make. And that decision was, was I going to stuff this down as deep as possible and feel shame? Because you feel a little shame when you come to this realization. And instead I decided I'm telling the fucking world and I, the first person I told was my HVAC guy, the producer Dan had recommended to me. I was, I had left my car at the bar the night before and maybe that's why he won't call me back now. Player two, player two drove me over to pick up my car. And as we are just kind of shooting the shit before we go separate directions, I see standing outside the bar that we were at. And he came over and said hi. And I was like, this was the first time I said to someone, want to hear a fucked up story. And I had no idea that that's the first person you told. I swear to Christ, I've called him four times since then and I can't get him to come to my house. And that's like, I've been working with that guy for years. You fucking owe me a good HVAC guy. Okay. I'll find one for you. It can't be it. He probably doesn't have any idea that you were the person that recommended me. He knows exactly who recommended you. Oh my God. But it really was, it took thought. It was this crushing shame that was inside me that this could happen to me. And I told that guy, that was low stakes, right? I'll apparently never see him again. He doesn't return calls anymore. Yeah, low stakes for you. And then I went to the coffee shop that has become my home base, my home away from home and said the same thing and told everybody. And it's like, it's healing. You don't have to run from it. You don't have to hide. You don't feel as much shame. You might still feel some shame, but it's okay. I think, man, a life, living a life, not hiding from shame, a life without shame is a big deal and one worth striving for. And that doesn't mean to live a shameless life such as, I don't know, Trump. Like, right? Shame is good for you if you're doing shameful shit. But if you're not doing shameful shit, first of all, you can strive to not do shameful shit and also strive to not be shamed by things that certainly aren't your fault. The way I just say it is be a decent fucking human being. That means the same thing. And I use it a lot because players two and three have said to me like, oh, I'm so stupid or how did this happen to me? And the first thing I'll say is, if you're stupid, I'm stupid. I don't think I'm stupid. And I did this for 15 years of marriage and 18 years of a relationship. So if you're, if you feel stupid, then I'm the dumbest man in the room right now. But then I tell them that the reason we didn't identify what she was is because we're decent fucking humans. And when you're a decent fucking human, you kind of expect other people to behave in, in this area that decent fucking humans do. And you never want behavior is so far outside of that. You're not looking for it, right? You might know some things are wrong or things are weird, but you don't expect that. Yep. I mean, I think a lot of my main, one of my main fears was what other people thought of me and I grew up with someone having ownership in my mind of them. And a lot of times it'd be fancied and everything like that. And what you did was, you know, I was shocked, but it was like, man, usually people don't do that. But people need to do that when instead of keeping it inside and, you know, trying to hide it away, it's still like the wrong thing to do. And it's what you tell anyone, if you're going through a problem, please let us know, you know, don't, don't be shy. And, but when someone actually does it, it takes them back because it doesn't happen so often. So yeah, you're so right. You got it. I commend you for doing that. Thank you. And Bill, you would have always been accepting of, I shouldn't say always. I mean, I know addiction messes with the way you react to things, but I know you well enough to know you're a decent fucking human. And I think we all need to be more forgiving for our, to ourselves, because if either of you two comes to me with things, I'm not going to judge. I want you to come to me and I want to be able to be there. But by nature, most of us humans don't want to ask for that help. It's very humbling to ask for the help that you need. Absolutely. And I remember like when I texted everyone to say, I need you guys. Many people said that was the strongest thing they'd ever seen from me when it sure as fuck felt like the weakest thing that I'd ever done. I think that also speaks a lot to how that voice inside of our heads tells us one thing when the reality of what other people are perceiving is usually so different. So Bill, you reached out for help to a man that is your friend at this point, I believe. Yeah. I've heard you talk about him a lot. What did you say to him? Initially, hey, you want to get some coffee? Break the ice. Nice. No response. I need your help. Within 15 seconds, I'm getting a call. Okay. So you texted him. I got a Facebook message. And when I said, when there was no response, I think, I don't know what, this is like a long time ago, so I don't know what the read version is. He definitely did not. But I know now when I said, I need your help, it was like within that minute, I'm getting a call like, hey, what's up? How long did it take from, hey, want to get coffee? To when you texted back, I need help. It took like a good 10, 15, 20 minutes. It took a while when he wasn't responding. And I'm like, you know what, Bill, I need to cut the shit. I need to be straightforward. I need your help. And initially, when I first reached out to him, I didn't, we got to a certain point and I relapsed. I drank. And then I didn't contact him again for a couple months. And then when it was really shit hit the fan, I reached out. I'm like, okay, I'm fucking serious this time. And when I was serious that time, I didn't look back. And he did so much for me. He helped me move out of the place I was in. When I moved into his silver living home, I couldn't afford the initial fees. He floated it for me. And he doesn't do that for everybody. Cause he can't, you know, it's just, it doesn't work like that. And he's like, I think he knew that was for real this time. And I owe that guy my life. Now, I mean, you can't pay him back. You can pay him back the rent, but you can't pay him back for your life. But clearly you're trying to pay it forward. Right? Yeah. And that's all I'm doing. Now, let me ask you this as someone who's been through the program, as someone who's reached out for help and then let people down probably repeatedly, right? What's it like when you start working with a new guy and then they relapse, what's that do to you? And how do you, can you still help them after that? Yeah, it's, that's a good question. So early on when I first started doing it, it hurts. I wasted a lot of time chasing guys down. Cause I was on fire initially when I first got wild. I'm like, I want to get out there and really plug away. And realization that I just had to get used to people letting me down in terms of like failing me, I guess. And it's just a par for the course. Most guys that approach me for help don't go through the process. I've got maybe five guys in a matter of seven years that actually followed through and did it all. But one makes it all worth it. And do you tell people no if you don't think they're serious or do you always tell people yes and then let them fall off? Yeah. So I do have qualifications of myself. So we get to a point. There's a certain question that I'll ask them and if they answer it a certain way, I won't, I will definitely say no right off the bat. And it sounds like you want to keep that question a little private. So the question is, and you'll be surprised and most normal people are shocked when I tell them that when I ask this, they're like, oh, that's, I'm like, hey, do you think you're ever going to drink again? And like eight times out of 10, they'll say no. And I'll say, well, I guess you don't need my help. And they'll be like, well, what do you mean? So I'm like, let me repeat the question. I'm not saying whether you want to or not. I'm saying, do you think you're ever going to drink again? No, I'm never going to drink again. I'm like, I can't help you. You don't, you don't have a slightest clue on what you're suffering from when you say that. Right. And I'm like, what do you mean? I need your help. I'm like, well, if you're never going to drink again, walk out of this rehab door. There's plenty of guys that are dying to get in here that know for certain they're going to drink or use again. So do you think you're ever going to drink again? And usually at that point, some guys are like, well, I don't know. And I'll take that. I'm like, okay, that's a half answer. The answer I really like and is, yeah, I'm going to. Right. Because they have a little bit of an understanding of what this is. Because if you're never going to drink again, why would you be here? Right. And that usually weeds a lot of guys at the beginning, but then we get at certain points that there's either a yes or no, either you're in this or you're not. And some of them say yes, but then their actions don't follow and I don't hear from them again. Right. And then some guys, you know, end up calling me back and we get through that process. I've had a guy mess up on, well, not mess up. He ended up going back to drinking three occasions and on the fourth occasion he got it and he's still well today. He ended up joining the Marines. He was like first in his class in his Marines. I got a text from him last week. Awesome. So I don't usually deny people, you know, help, but if it gets to a point where I'm not, you know, helping them or I'm chasing them around, they're expecting me to be a banker or, you know, be someone that's a therapist. I'm not their therapy guy. I tell them like, listen, you need to either do this or you got to find someone else to help you. So I've had to fire guys, I guess you could say before. You mentioned therapy and it's a common topic on this show. And do most of the people who you come across have access to mental health resources? Is there a way to get that through the program? So the people that I come across, yeah. So most of the guys that I meet are in a rehab center, so they have counselors on staff and they are going through a lot of those types of therapeutical stuff. So there's a lot of opinions about what AA is and stuff and I'm definitely under the opinion AA is not therapy. I'm definitely not a licensed therapist. So to get therapy you need to, or practice therapy, you need to be a licensed therapist. I'm certainly not. And I think therapy is really great. So I went to a lot of great therapists before, I went to a lot of great psychiatrists before. And I've occasionally gone to therapy over the course of the last seven years. I'm not like a regular go person, but there's a lot of things that AA doesn't take care of in that regards that a therapist can. So I know a lot of people in the rehabs have access to that, but just like anything, human resources is the first thing to always get cut when we're talking about tax. It's the first thing to go. This rehab center I go to, it's state funded, it's literally a ghetto. It's the food's bad. Because alcoholics, drug addicts, we're like the lepers of the 21st century. No one wants to touch us because we harm everything that we're around. We engulf problems. So it's understandable why we're always the first thing to go, but in reality, it's anything that they want to treat, more bars, more guards and stuff like that. And they can, right or wrong, and very obviously wrong, addiction is something that's easy to blame the person for, right? Absolutely. And listen, I had my own self to blame and my actions. You know, I'm the one that put myself in this situation. It was a self-imposed crisis. However, though, I'm not a bad person. I haven't met a bad person in AA. They're just sick people trying to get well. So this is not about bad people getting good, it's sick people trying to get well. And that's what I think society just needs to look at it a little bit more closely. Well, that's why I said, I mean, you said you put yourself in those situations, but the fact that you had an addiction. It's an ailment. It's a disease. Right. I didn't have a choice of whether I drank or not drink. There's situations in my life that have come up where I had to explain it to my own mother dealing with my brother. And she's like, well, he probably he let my brother in the home last, like at the start of COVID to help out around the house. My dad has Alzheimer's and he let, yeah, it's okay. And he, she thought that bringing him in the home to help around the house would be a good idea. And I'm like, that is not a good idea. He's my brother, but it's like that guy with the sign, you know, not to judge anyone with a sign, you know, asking, you know, you don't allow just any person of stranger just into your home in their condition. It's not safe for you. It's not even safe for them. And it was a big mistake. And you know, there was an altercation with, with, with my dad. My dad had to go to the hospital. My, my brother bashed a bottle over his head because of a confrontation that they had. And I know my brother isn't a bad guy. He's just sick. Right. He's, it wasn't his intention to become the person that he became. I didn't intend to become the person I became. And just coming from that type of understanding, you know, or, you know, at least, you know, remotely have an identification of that. I think we need to treat it, it is a mental and a disease in our country. And we need to continue to look at it like this such. How do people end up in this, this facility that you visit? Many, many different ways. There's a lot of guys coming from Cook County jail. There's a lot of guys coming from Lake County jail. A lot of guys coming off the street, coming from different homeless shelters connected with the Salvation Army. They're coming from a lot of different forums. And I couldn't go there for a year. So a rehab center is very similar to like an old folks senior living, a lot of people coming and going and living there. It's a hot spot for viruses. So but yeah, you're getting, you walk in an AA, they're coming from a lot of different backgrounds. You know, a lot of different areas. Some come from very rich families, some come from very poor, poor families, black, white men. There's a pregnancy unit at this place. There's a lot of different backgrounds and they're all on the same vessel, just like Titanic. Do you, it sounds kind of scary. That place sounds kind of scary. But do you feel like, do you feel like the people that you meet there, that in the rehab, the people that you meet in AA, like are those your people? Do you feel comfortable? They're my people. I feel most comfortable in an AA. Like I'm comfortable sitting anywhere, but I definitely feel more at one with people that are like me. I can identify on that level for sure. Bill, I'm impressed with the studio today. I don't know if you can see the amount of traffic in this alley. You've got to start somewhere. Well, I mean, what do you mean? It's COVID safe. Absolutely, that's true. It allows our fans to peek into the studio to watch. I mean, Howard Stern has that, like the window. I don't know if Howard Stern has that. What WGN does right on Michigan Avenue. I mean, we're starting off pretty big. Now the outside noises, I was going to say they can get a little annoying. Usually they're just more quaint than anything. It's the hustle and bustle of living in a city. But the weed whacker, that can get a little annoying. But here we are. And thank you to all of our terrible listeners for sitting through that. And it's really our fault for not having one of those signs that say on air. Oh, that's it. We got to get a red light above the door. Yeah. Otherwise, how were they to know that the terrible studio is in use? Well, I like this particular studio because it seems like a lot of projects have been complete in here. A lot of projects have been started. I knew that was going to be the answer. You can see a lot of them that have been started laying around. So there's a lot of good intentions in here, correct? Oh yeah. So a lot of good intentions and broken dreams. But you got to keep trying. I think there's a lot of tries still left in here. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you, Bill. Bill, is that? I got one more question before we tail off here. When you're talking about the people that you work with, the people that you see, the people that you help, you use the word guys a lot. And is that just because you're a healthy Midwesterner and guys means is very encompassing? Is this only for men that you work with? Someone's better DEI. That's a good question. There's a lot of women that I know in the program. Because I don't spend a lot of time in contemporary 12-step meetings. I go if I'm asked. I'm asked to speak a lot at these functions. But I tend to find I'm more helpful at a rehab center. And this rehab center tends to be mostly men. So I actually do sponsor one woman right now. She was already recovered. So I think it would be hard for me to sponsor a woman that has not already been through the process. That could be, you know, there could be an emotion state. But you know, there's definitely a lot of women. So when I say guys, I am referring to a lot of guys when I'm sponsoring. But there's definitely a lot of females that I know in the program over the years and everything like that. Right. And are the resources are the resources available for trans folk? Oh, yeah. Trans folk. Yeah. Not to deny, there's definitely a LGBTQ community. They have they do have separate meetings, too, on their own. And there's a lot of literature on AA.org when it comes to that. And there's a lot, like I said, AA is literally like a 21st century of Titanic. You got people at the captain's table, you know, the Rockefellers making money. And then you have people down in the steerage. So, you know, people down the steerage are not going for a cruise. They're just trying to get to the free world. But you know what happened with Titanic? You know, it hit that iceberg and that water fell just as cold as it did to the rich people, those poor people. But the great thing about AA, unlike those, you know, rescued passengers, you know, they went their separate ways after that disaster. And within AA, you know, it just doesn't end at that, you know, that sinking. You know, it's about us going back to that sinking ship and, you know, pulling people out of the water. And there's a place where there's no class, you know, for sure. There's no class in here. We like to call that the terrible studio. As quickly as we both jumped on that. No class. No, I think that's awesome, man. And yeah, I have learned a lot today. I appreciate you, Bill. I have one question that hopefully is good for at least one listener out there, if anyone listens. What does someone do if they think they need help? Be honest and reach out. Don't delay. Don't wait. Don't worry about what other people think of you. Do it right away. It's worth it. It's worth it. Anyone that's had to walk through the fear and do that, just do it. If you think you have a problem, reach out. There's a lot of, you know, I mentioned aa.org. There's a lot of, you know, helpful materials out there. And just don't give up. You know, don't give up. Bill, that's great. And I will say as an outsider that just knowing you and seeing you, it is very clearly worth it. And I mean, I admire what you do. I really do. And I've said that to other people before. Again, I said something similar earlier. I don't know that I've ever said that to your face. And don't ever ask me again because I'll deny saying it. But it's been remarkable. And you've told me stories. Well, you haven't really told me a lot of stories from your past. And I never want to put you on the spot and make you tell those stories because I know that they're who made you and got you here today. And it's about today and moving forward. But I appreciate you coming on here and being super open and honest. And I think you do great work. Thanks. No, thanks for having me. I do appreciate it. And today I have a life beyond my wildest dreams. When a guy a long time ago, my very first sponsor I ever approached, he's like, Bill, you're going to have a life beyond your wildest dreams. And I understand what he means by that today. What's going on today? I have a good home. I'm with somebody that meets my ideal. I never thought I'd have someone that I'd had all the dates that I've been on. I'm trying to find someone that gets me. I found someone that gets me. It's a very simple life, but I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. And I'm extremely grateful. Well, she has to be very special or very weird if she gets you, Bill. Both. For sure. Very. You've got a nice home. You've got a cat, if I remember correctly. What's your cat's name? Poo-Poo. Poo-Poo. I didn't name him. Poor guy. We'll bleep that out later. We don't use names on the podcast. That was a trap. Okay. His name is Poopy sometimes. I love him to death. I never thought I'd be a cat guy. We'll ask for a picture later so that we can put it up on the Facebook page or the Twitter or the blog. I don't know. We always say just go to the website. That means any one of our social media, Instagram, Spotify. You can't put pictures on Spotify, I don't think. We'll find a place to show Poo-Poo. Okay. He's got an ego the size of Gibraltar. Nice. He'll appreciate that. Bill, it's been great. I'm really happy to have you here. It sure has been, man. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. This is something that I think is just super important and can be valuable in so many lives. Sharing your story and being able to talk about it, again, it's not something that everybody's willing to do. It's easy to stuff it down and hide it and feel shame. But I've known you to just want to help. I think and I hope that this is going to help people today. I will let you go and end it the way we always end it by saying that this has been absolutely, positively terrible. Thank you again for everything, Sam, for coming. I got you in my life, it's alright If you don't want to scream I just want to have your company I got you in my life, it's alright We got Mario as a pet, Mario was the fattest cat Now we got Adolf the Moon, I am so lucky I found you And now I know you're like a boss, or whatever I am I'm lost to find the words that I should say Because I love you to this day And each thing I offer you is free You can call me Dutch and give it your might Just like a change of mind, you did Hey you did, now I'm tired of this I got you in my life, it's alright If you don't want to scream I just want to have your company I got you back in time to confess, I confess I was nervous and stressed because of what you were best I was right