Producer Dan: 00:01

You're tuned in to positively terrible. I'm producer Dan, and each week, my buddy Scott and I discuss surviving and thriving after trauma. It's a journey that started when Scott, his wife's fiance, and her boyfriend walked into a bar. This week's decent human being is Shelley. She's got a messed up story about domestic violence and murder.

Producer Dan: 00:21

Settle in my terrible listeners. Today's episode is going to be positively terrible.

Scott: 00:55

Right.

Producer Dan: 01:03

Hey, Scott.

Scott: 01:05

Dan, how's it going, man?

Producer Dan: 01:06

Man, it's going well. How are you, bud?

Scott: 01:09

I'm doing alright. What's going on in your world? I I talked to you a little earlier, and you said it's a lot of stuff going on right now.

Producer Dan: 01:17

Lot of stuff, but let me tell you about the most important stuff.

Scott: 01:19

Okay.

Producer Dan: 01:20

I downloaded the Popeye's chicken app today, and my daughter had a biscuit for dinner for the first time in her entire 7 year long life.

Scott: 01:32

Okay. And?

Producer Dan: 01:34

That that I mean, it's a winner. She eats bread a lot, but she also liked the Popeye chicken fingers, and I sure liked the Popeye's spicy chicken sandwich. It is the finest of fast food chicken sandwiches in my opinion.

Scott: 01:49

I I'm not gonna argue with you. What I learned recently, though, is not about Popeye's, but on on the topic of fast food is Wendy's has breakfast. Did you know Wendy's has breakfast?

Producer Dan: 01:59

I think I did know they had breakfast, and I think I had it once.

Scott: 02:02

Well, they actually have biscuits and gravy there. I did not know that. And I I thought they were capable. I I didn't hate it. So, I will put that out there.

Scott: 02:12

I I will also eat the spicy chicken sandals from Popeyes, but the, biscuits and gravy are something that I've really barely ever had in my life from anywhere, to be honest, but the Wendy's ones I found were were capable.

Producer Dan: 02:26

I can't even judge you with my biscuits and gravy.

Scott: 02:29

Well, the I I know a lot of people do. Francis had them too, and he liked them, though. So I think they've got the the Francis, seal of approval, and the man knows his fast food. Shelly, what do you think of biscuits and gravy?

Shelly: 02:44

I love biscuits and gravy.

Scott: 02:46

Good answer.

Shelly: 02:47

So that's good that's good news,

Scott: 02:49

but I'm a wimp

Shelly: 02:50

I'm a wimp when it comes to spicy chicken sandwiches. I love chicken sandwiches, but I'm I'm a total wimp on spice.

Producer Dan: 02:57

Well, the regular chicken sandwich from Popeyes is also fantastic. Have you enjoyed that before? Yes. And would you say that it's one of the finest of fast food chicken sandwiches?

Shelly: 03:10

It is, but I'm a little biased towards the one of their leading competitors.

Producer Dan: 03:15

Well, which one? Chick Fil A. A.

Scott: 03:18

Chick

Producer Dan: 03:19

Fil a is up there. No argument for me. That is a very fine fast food chicken sandwich. No.

Scott: 03:25

I think Popeye's you know, I'm not gonna go there because he could talk I I I'm a bit of a connoisseur of fast food, we can say, and I've got lots of very strong opinions, probably too strong of opinions. And as I like to say, that's not what we're here to talk about today. So welcome to the show. And I just kinda wanna start off by saying Dan's intro read sounds pretty intense today. You're here to talk about dust domestic violence and murder.

Scott: 04:00

So just really quickly, could you tell us about

Shelly: 04:05

Yes. My mother was murdered, so that's a pretty close relationship. I was 15.

Scott: 04:15

Wow. Wow. And did you were your did you live at home at the time? I'm assuming if you're 15 that you know, I I know there's some custody arrangement.

Shelly: 04:26

Yes. Yeah. So I I grew up in a home with domestic violence, and and my parents this this murder happened in 1985. So I was 15 at the time. I'm gonna be 30 or 54 on Saturday, so my birthday's in a couple days.

Producer Dan: 04:45

And Happy birthday.

Shelly: 04:47

Thanks. So it, you know, it's been a while, but it takes a long time to get past this. So I I grew up in a home with domestic violence, and my dad was a doctor Jekyll, mister Hyde alcoholic. And so he, would he would get violent when he when he drank. And and so you never knew when the explosions were gonna be.

Shelly: 05:11

You never knew what triggered it. And as a child, that's a whole different dynamic than being an adult trying to deal with domestic violence. And so my my dad, he he just he would lose it on different things. And this particular day, there was an inciting incident that happened at school or during the school day. And my dad worked for Ford, and in the 8 and this is in the eighties.

Shelly: 05:41

In the eighties, CAD systems were just coming online. And so, Ford ran them 24 hours a day. So my dad being a draftsman that converted to CAD design, he he was on the afternoon shift, and then my mom worked during the day. And so the the normal routine is my dad would make dinner before he left for work, and he would he would leave for work, and we would get home from school and whatever. My mom would come home from work and so then my dad would be be home during the day.

Shelly: 06:20

Well, my sister, had gotten in trouble at school that day. She had a special class that was at a different high school across town, and normally she would take the bus. But this particular day, my grandmother was out of town, and she had my grandmother's car. And so on the way back from this special advanced office procedures class, I think typing. You know?

Shelly: 06:47

It was, her and 2 of the girls from her class decided they were gonna stop at a party store. Well, that's a Michigan term. It's a party store. It's basically, a no name 711. And so they they stopped at this party store to get snacks or whatever teenagers do, and they were both they were all seniors in high school.

Shelly: 07:10

I was a sophomore at the time, and this was in October. So it was the fall of my sophomore year. And the 2 girls that were with my sister decided that they were gonna shoplift some beer because, obviously, they're not buying beer because they're underage.

Scott: 07:28

Mhmm.

Shelly: 07:29

Well, they got caught, and they all got arrested and taken to the jail. Well, since my dad was the parent that was home, he had to go bail my sister out. Now I didn't talk to my sister. There's all these rumors going around school because obviously people became aware of this, and I didn't get a chance to talk to my sister. She did come back to school in the afternoon, and her basketball we both played basketball.

Shelly: 08:01

Basketball. She was on the varsity, and I was on the junior varsity team. And so she she had, practice right after school, and mine was after hers. So I rode the bus home. I didn't talk to my sister, but I already knew there was trouble brewing.

Shelly: 08:20

Because when you grow up in this environment, you know the warning signs of a potential danger. And so I knew there was potential for their to to to not have a good outcome that day. So but I did not expect not even remotely expect what I what I found when I got home. So I got off the school bus, and Lisa stayed up at, the school for basketball practice. And I I come in the in the door of the kitchen, and and here's my dad.

Shelly: 09:00

He should have been getting ready to leave for work, but he's in his bathroom making meatloaf drunk. And and so then he's tell because I didn't still hadn't known what the heck went on that day. I only heard the rumor mill at school. So now he's telling me what happened, and he's crying. I had no idea how to deal with this emotion.

Shelly: 09:29

Anger, I understand. Whatever. But now he's crying to me. Where did I go wrong as a parent? Blah blah blah.

Shelly: 09:38

I'm thinking, well, let me you want a list? Maybe this isn't

Scott: 09:42

a good

Shelly: 09:43

time for a list. So I, I hit the I hit the road and went upstairs to try to avoid my dad. And I called my mother to arrange for carpooling because that was just part of the normal routine. My mom was gonna pick me and my friend up from our practice and drive us home after she got home from work. So I called my mother and she, for some reason, asked me if my dad had left for work.

Shelly: 10:18

And, unfortunately, I said no. And so then she wanted to talk to him, and I'm like, oh, crap. So this is back in the day where there's only a couple handsets. Right? There's a so I wish I would've I wish I would've stayed upstairs in the master bedroom on the other line and but I called down to my dad.

Shelly: 10:37

He picked up the phone in the kitchen, and he proceeds to and I hung up. But I knew that instinctively because I'm a child that grew up in this environment, I I know that I need to pay attention to what's going on here. So I snuck downstairs, and I kinda hid in the hallway outside of my dad's view to over eavesdrop on his half of the conversation. So he tells my mother what happened at school and how my sister had gotten arrested. And this is where the strange thing happens is now my dad is getting mad that my mother's getting mad that my sister was arrested.

Shelly: 11:27

So now I don't know one mother in America or in the world probably that wouldn't be angry if their teenage daughter got arrested. And and so but the reason why my dad was getting mad is because he had promised my sister that he wouldn't say anything to my mother until the 3 of them could sit down and talk together because he felt like, because my sister really wasn't the one that shoplifted, but they all were, getting in trouble for the same thing, and they were threatening to to to charge them as adults because they're all 17, blah blah blah. So my dad thought they've already scared the shit out of them. There doesn't need to be an extensive punishment, but I I can I know my mother well enough to know my sister's instantly grounded? So I I knew that too.

Shelly: 12:24

And so that was, like, when the real red flag started lighting up on on me as, oh, shit. There's gonna be trouble. So I my ride was late. I kinda avoid my dad. My my ride was late and my sister because she had my grandmother's car.

Shelly: 12:46

I'm expecting her home any minute because my ride's late and school is only, like, 15 minutes away. Well, next thing you know, the garage door's opening. My mother had to have hung up immediately at work and left and and drove drove home. So she comes in the door, and as soon as I heard the garage door open, I'm like, I need to create a distraction. So I I start creating this distraction of that I have this, geometry test the next day, and I need some help.

Shelly: 13:22

Well, I didn't need any help, and I didn't even care about the geometry test. Because now my mom's sitting down at the kitchen table with me trying to help me with this geometry. My dad's sitting 5 feet away, still sipping his Manhattans in his bathrobe. And, you know, this is at least an hour later. So, I'm assessing the situation going, okay.

Shelly: 13:48

My sister should be home any minute. If if anything goes awry, it should be okay. Because to kinda back up a bit, because this is a pattern, and I cannot tell you how many times, my sister and I have were the ones physically breaking up the fights. Especially as I got older, my mother started saying, you know, one of these times, you guys aren't gonna be here and he's gonna kill me. I have that running in my head.

Shelly: 14:24

I I know this already. This is what I've been told for probably at that point, 5 years.

Scott: 14:30

Wow.

Shelly: 14:30

And, so that's why I'm on high alert going, when's Lisa gonna get here? She should be here any minute. Is it safe? And so I'm assessing this situation. My parents don't even speak to each other.

Shelly: 14:45

My ride comes. They honk the horn. I say, I love you. I kiss my mom goodbye, and I leave. I get to the school, and there sits my sister in the gym.

Shelly: 14:59

And next thing you know, the neighbors are there to pick us up saying there's been a fire at your house. And so I and then the neighbors we my sister and I leave the school with the neighbors. And on the way home, they're saying, oh, don't worry. The the fire is under control. The fire the fire department's been there.

Shelly: 15:24

Your dad's at our house, blah blah. We're pulling out of the school parking lot, and and she my neighbor my neighbor who we're close to, she she's, telling us how, you know, everything's under control. And then I say, yeah. Well, where's my mom? And she looks at me in this stupid ass song, the roof the roof the roof is on fire.

Shelly: 15:52

I don't need no water. Let the beep beep burn is playing. My sister's singing it while we're driving down the road, and I'm asking this question where my mother is. And she's telling me, oh, she's not home from work yet. In that moment, I hit my sister in the leg because I knew my mother was dead, and I knew my father murdered her and set the house on fire because he's he was threatening that from the time I was the earliest memory of I, that I have of him threatening to kill us all and burn the house down.

Shelly: 16:28

I was 6. So I'm 15 now, so I've been hearing that for at least 9 years. And I say to my sister, I say mom was home when I left. She turns white in the face, and she knew instantly. Well then things get worse.

Shelly: 16:47

So yes my mom was dead And, yes, my dad did it, but my sister and I had to live with them for the next two and a half years, and it just became a complete shit show. So that's the cliff notes.

Scott: 17:02

I I'm sure I'm that first of all, thank you for sharing all of that. I, you know, Dan and I are over here kind of speechless, I think, while while you're talking about it. Fucked to do. Not not the best way to be during a podcast. However, you you carried it for a while there, and that was incredibly powerful, and I can't imagine it.

Scott: 17:25

So first, thank you so much for for sharing. And I do have a couple questions that I wanted to let you get through a lot of that first. You said your dad was a doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde type. Mhmm. So when your neighbors showed up to pick you up and, you know, said that mom hadn't been home from work and that things are under control, had they ever seen or had reason to suspect there was this other side to them?

Shelly: 17:56

No. We we lived in This is the other thing that people, I think, don't really realize about domestic violence. And, especially, it's different now than it was then too. I mean, completely different. Still terrible, but and and still people are clueless, but the the amount of cluelessness back then is even worse.

Shelly: 18:18

And my parents were married 1 month shy of 25 years. So I was 15. My sister was 17. So this started from the beginning, and my mom didn't get out. And it's not like she didn't have the means to do it either.

Shelly: 18:32

But, you know, we lived in a custom built. My dad designed and built our house. It was almost 5,000 square feet on an acre of land in one of the nicest suburbs of of Detroit at the time. So we're talking upper middle class suburban living. So the white picket fence are I mean, our last vacation as a family was a month long to Europe.

Shelly: 18:59

So it's not like it's not like any nobody suspected anything. And, oh, and not even all family knew that this happened. And then we were re then then I lived out my my whole the rest of my teenage years reading about it in the newspaper because my sister and I had to live with my dad for the next two and a half years before his trial. And then they put me on the stand to be the key witness for the prosecution that I found out, only a week before that I was well, actually, 2 days before that it was gonna be for the prosecution to use me to prove first degree murder, and then they sent me home with him. This is so there's a lot of things in this story

Producer Dan: 19:46

Yeah.

Shelly: 19:47

That are insane.

Scott: 19:49

Yeah. Go ahead, Dan.

Producer Dan: 19:51

Alright. So house house is on fire. House is burning. You come home. What happens?

Producer Dan: 19:59

Like, is the fire department there? Is the house totally ruined? And where is dad at this time?

Shelly: 20:08

Okay. So because it was where we lived, we get to our neighborhood and the street's blocked off. ABC, NBC, CBS News crews are all there. I watched my house on fire, literally on fire on the 11 o'clock news that night. So that night, on the 11 o'clock news, they're saying it's a suspicious fire, and we have a dead 50 year old woman.

Shelly: 20:35

It well, they named my mother.

Scott: 20:36

They Sure.

Shelly: 20:37

They name her. So but there's been there was one cluster thereafter the next. The first thought has he came back as natural causes. Well, wait a minute. You have an arson in a dead 5 year old woman.

Shelly: 20:52

I know that the body is very badly burned. So if you can't come to some conclusion, don't make the wrong one. So

Producer Dan: 21:01

Yeah. Very reasonable. Yes. Just did

Shelly: 21:06

well, like I said, it's a very long convoluted story. I don't know if you well, you probably don't know who Werner Spitz is. I wouldn't have known who Werner Spitz.

Scott: 21:18

He No. I don't.

Shelly: 21:18

He he did he was involved in the autopsies of JFK and MLK, and he got involved.

Scott: 21:25

Oh, wow. Okay.

Shelly: 21:27

The first autopsy came back as natural causes, which it wasn't. But my mom's body was so badly burned because my dad poured accelerant on her. And, anyway, the they exhumed her to do subsequent autopsies. So there's a debate, and, obviously, there's a debate that happened in in the trial that the first autopsy was right and the ones that said that there was a stab wound and you know? So the there's there's a debate.

Shelly: 22:02

But, really, he he strangled her and stabbed her and then and then tried to cover it up with the fire.

Scott: 22:10

I've got so many things going through my head right now. First of all, just I feel so much for you and your sister of having not just being in that situation, but then having to live with this man and be in this man's life. And I'm just I wanna yell. It's I hear his first story is that she's not even home.

Shelly: 22:38

Well, that was his neighbor's story. His story was that he left to go get heating supplies for the cottage, and he came home and there was a fire. Well, no. That's not what happened.

Scott: 22:48

Okay. Well, it it just obviously, you know things that others didn't know at that time. Mhmm. How quickly did you or did you express this to the police during the

Shelly: 23:02

Yeah. And, see, that's that's the other thing. I said doctor Jekyll, mister Hyde, and that's what I mean is, you know, it's really unless you grow up in this situation. I love I love I still love my father. I hate what he did.

Shelly: 23:21

He was the same man that would swim with me in Lake Huron for epic cottage, and let me swim right his back while he pretended to be Shamu. He was the same man who rubbed my leg cramps for 2 hours at 2 o'clock in the morning after going to Disney. You know, he was the same man who taught me how to wire electric outlets when I was 6 years old, and I I'm I'm in the middle of a bathroom renovation project that I'm 90% doing myself. So there's so many good things about my father, and there's so many horrible things about my father. And that's that's the hard thing.

Shelly: 23:59

So even though in that moment when they said my mom wasn't there, I wanted to believe my dad's story. And I had to believe my dad's story to survive in that time period. I'm 15 years old. Where else am I going? And, and I just lost my mother, my home, and all of our worldly possessions.

Shelly: 24:23

I literally had on my basketball jersey, which wasn't mine, and my practice shorts and my tennis shoes. I mean, that's literally all I had. So in that moment, you're wanting to believe your father. Plus, as a a trained domestic violent child, I'm also trained to not speak about it. So the next day, we end up at the Farmington Hills Police, department to to meet with the officers.

Shelly: 24:59

I obviously they really wanna talk to me because I was the last one home. I'm the only one that can discredit my dad's story. Mhmm. And so, again, as a as a teenager, you don't know crap about anything. So the next morning, we show up at the police station.

Shelly: 25:22

My dad has an attorney. Why why do you why do you have a criminal defense attorney if this is a so called accident

Producer Dan: 25:29

Sure.

Shelly: 25:30

To talk to the police. Right? I didn't that didn't clue in on that at all until I was an adult. So my dad's attorney is now sitting in my my my interrogation. I I don't know if it's called an interrogation, but I was being questioned.

Shelly: 25:46

Right? So my dad's attorney is sitting in with me, and obviously, there's police officers talking to my sister, and there's, people talking to my dad. Now, again, I didn't clue in on this as a as a child, but the the attorney's sitting there watching to see what I say. Now this is the other thing that is just crap about the whole story is the police know that, there's a dead 50 year old. Now I'm gonna be 54, like I said, on Saturday.

Shelly: 26:24

50 is not old. No. And and you already know that it's arson. So wouldn't you think that there's some sort of connection here? And I'm the last one home, and they don't even ask me about domestic violence.

Shelly: 26:41

Now I answered every single question that they asked honestly, and I would have answered any question. But I am not gonna be forthcoming with information because I'm I'm trained not to do that. I'm trained to keep silence. I'm trained to not talk about those things. This is a secret.

Shelly: 27:03

And and so they they they have that questioning. Now that was October 14, 1980 5 is when the fire was. My dad's trial was in February of 88. In those two and a half years, after they started getting reports that domestic violence existed from letters from my mom's friend a couple of friends, my grandmother, and my aunt, Do you know how many times they circled back the police to talk to me or my sister? 0.

Scott: 27:41

Wow.

Shelly: 27:42

0. So I did not find out that I was testifying for the prosecution until 2 days before when I got I I'm I finally my senior year of high school, I moved myself to California with my friend's family because I couldn't handle reading about my life anymore. I couldn't handle feeling like I was gonna be killed and everything else that was going on at home. And so my dad calls me. It was, like, a Tuesday.

Shelly: 28:12

He's like, Shelly, you need to come home. You have to testify in court on Monday. I got you a plane ticket. You fly out Friday. So I flew from San Francisco, on Saturday morning.

Shelly: 28:26

He's like, here's the address. You have to go talk to this lawyer to get prepped. No idea who this lawyer is. The lawyer starts, and mind you, for the last two and a half years, I'm trying to believe his bullshit. Mhmm.

Shelly: 28:40

And so the the the lawyer says to me she goes, well, she starts showing me evidence, and she shows me this picture of our living room. Now we had a vaulted ceiling in the in the living room. So it went from 1 story to 2 story, and we had a circular staircase.

Scott: 29:00

K.

Shelly: 29:00

So if I came down the stairs, anybody comes down the stairs, you're overlooking the whole room. I actually was in that room because there was a window in the corner that I would sit to look up for my ride because I could see him coming down the street. So in the middle of this living room, there's a 3 foot diameter rust colored stain in the carpet. And she says, have you ever seen this stain? No.

Shelly: 29:32

She goes, would you have seen it? I said, yes. I was right here, and I'm it was obvious that it was blood. Obvious that that's what it was in the middle of the floor in this huge and I'm gonna say probably 20 by 25 foot room.

Scott: 29:49

25.

Shelly: 29:50

And she goes, well, the night of the fire, the police took these photos. But when they went back to get a sample of that carpet for the crime lab, the carpet was missing. Missing. And we're not this is not a rug. It's a carpet.

Shelly: 30:11

Now mind you, what I didn't say in the story, because the story like I said, the story goes on and on and on. After we, after, like, 2 weeks, we stayed with my uncle, and then we rented the house that was kitty corner behind our house on a hill, which was weird because it was my best friend growing up's house. Couple years previous, they had moved to a different house in the same subdivision. So now I'm living in the house, looking out my window and my burned down house that's boarded up. Then my dad starts sending me over there.

Shelly: 30:50

The first time he did it, it was at night in November. So you guys are from Chicago. You know what November at night is. It's cold and kinda creepy, and you're 15. And he gives me the keys, and he tells me I need to go to the basement of our house to get some canned goods.

Shelly: 31:10

So why does my dad have a key to the crime scene? And now he's sending me to I I don't need to go to a haunted house ever. Right. So so, anyway, what happened to the carpet? What what happened there?

Shelly: 31:29

And so she's showing me all this. My whole world is collapsing because I'm like, I can't believe my dad's story. I and and then I looked down, and it's the prosecutor. She's starting to tell me these stories. Well, do you did about the domestic violence?

Shelly: 31:48

I'm like, how do you even know that my dad threatened to kill us and burn down the house and now you want? How do you know that? My sister and I are and my dad are the only 3 people living that know this. And you want me to recant this in open court on Monday? And then all this whole host of stories that I never even expressed in my entire life.

Scott: 32:11

At this point when you're going to testify, have you admitted to

Shelly: 32:17

Well, I had admitted it, but I didn't want to. And so that was, like, the whole moment in that time is just like, I have to accept this because I have to go to court. And they're gonna be using me to prove first degree premeditated murder. That was their objective, is to use me to do that. And I'm 17.

Shelly: 32:40

And this is my father. And I am going home with him when I'm done talking for 8 hours on the stand. So it was a nightmare.

Producer Dan: 32:54

Yeah. It's insane. And

Shelly: 32:57

Well, again, that's an whole another thing. I was petrified the whole time. So at the beginning of my testimony and now the judge is yelling at me because I'm not apparently talking loud enough, and so I'm I'm crumpling up my my Kleenex, and I'm trying not to cry, and I'm panicked. And so the judge calls a recess, and he's like, well, we're gonna let the we're gonna let the jury go to make it easier for you to testify. I'm like, well, if you can let him go, you know, that would

Scott: 33:29

be that would

Shelly: 33:29

be a lot easier. Sure. But, obviously, they can't do that.

Scott: 33:35

Right.

Shelly: 33:35

And so they took this recess for the jury to be excused. And then I spent, I don't know how many hours, answering and talking about these details about the the the the specific threats that my dad made over time in these instances. Like I said, it's the first time I'm even admitting they ever happened, and it's an open court, and my dad's sitting across the room. So I'm scared shitless. And now the judge calls another recess to call the jury back in for the last part of my testimony.

Shelly: 34:15

So this recess was gonna be a little longer. So I went downstairs in the courthouse to gets to get a drink, and and I was just like, oh my gosh. I'm dead. I'm I'm dead. And, and so I I turn around.

Shelly: 34:35

This is after a few minutes, but probably 5, 10 minutes. I turn around, and my dad's walking towards me, and I'm like, oh, shit. I'm I'm dead. I'm and and probably the one of the weirdest responses was my dad hugs me, and he says, just say what you gotta say. And I was totally taken aback.

Shelly: 35:04

I still didn't feel like I was completely safe because I didn't expect that response. And by this time, by the way, my dad had gone to rehab and wasn't drinking. So, that that's a little different dynamic as well. So, he he says that. And, again, I didn't realize this until, actually, I was writing my book, and I went back to the courthouse and pulled transcripts that every single thing that I literally was risking my life to give, the testimony was thrown out.

Shelly: 35:45

After when they called that recess, my dad's attorney had a sidebar with the judge. And because I couldn't remember, it was 19 it was July 27, 1976 was the first time. I just remembered that it was the summer of 1976 because the car I was driving, we were driving. And I knew it was summer because I knew what pajamas I was wearing when we were fleeing the house. And I remembered, you know, where we went for 4 hours and, you know, I could remember all the details of all these things.

Shelly: 36:19

But because I didn't have a specific date, my dad's attorney had those things thrown out, and my dad knew that. That's why he wasn't pissed because they had already discredited or just had and the jury didn't hear it at all anyway because they were out of the room.

Scott: 36:36

Yeah. I was confused about that part. There's a lot I'm confused about hearing about a legal case, and I'm hoping that some of that has changed since the mid eighties, because it sounds like there's a lot left to be desired. But, you know, I I really I do you have an understanding of how you can give testimony with?

Shelly: 36:59

Well, I guess the thing is there is they would re report it. And if they would've they would've heard it if they didn't get that thrown out for that reason.

Scott: 37:09

Sure.

Shelly: 37:10

So they didn't ever they so they they didn't hear it at all. So that's why my dad didn't care.

Scott: 37:15

Right. No. I get

Shelly: 37:16

that. They didn't they didn't hear any of it. Yeah.

Scott: 37:19

Alright. So let's jump to the end of this part of the story, I guess. Was he was he convicted?

Shelly: 37:26

He was. He was keep on he was convicted of second degree murder and arson. And he got 13 years for the murder and 7 for the arson to be served concurrently. Even the new you know, even the newspaper headlines, which I still have most of them, they're not right. You can't believe, I mean, you can believe, but you can't believe everything you read and even the newspaper.

Scott: 37:57

Sure.

Shelly: 37:57

Because it says, man, gets 15 years wrong. No. And then they talk about what my how my sister and I were re responding or reacting at the sentencing hearing how, you know, they portrayed it like we didn't care. No. I was crying, waving to my father saying I love you as he walked out in shackles.

Shelly: 38:19

But but the way they portrayed it was that we were cold and unemotional.

Scott: 38:26

So That's not that's not, and that just that just more pain on top of what you've already gone gone through. And I it's one of those things that with the media, you know, what what is their responsibility? Sometimes it's selling newspapers and pushing a narrative and but there's also just such a huge importance on reporting news. And there's just where's the line? You know, I it's one of those things I've I struggle with a lot.

Scott: 38:59

Even reporting on some child whose parents went through a situation like this, I mean, that is hard. And I know you were almost an adult at the time that you're going through the trial, but you're still very young and processing and going through a very difficult time. And there is some responsibility just for you to have the facts right and to not sensationalize or or do whatever that they're

Shelly: 39:29

Well, he ended up dying of cancer in prison. So he went to he went to prison in the spring of in March of 88.

Scott: 39:40

Okay.

Shelly: 39:41

And he died in July of 97. So so, what, almost 9 year 9 and a a little bit years.

Scott: 39:54

Did he ever admit to what he did? No. No. Seem remorseful? Or No.

Shelly: 40:02

No. No. No. No. It got worse.

Shelly: 40:04

Like I said, the story keeps continuing. It it gets worse.

Scott: 40:10

Well, is the when when you say the story keeps continuing, I mean, we're transitioning now to the part of the story where we talk about you and where you're at today. And I know that you've written a memoir about this. Mhmm. Can you tell us a little bit about that? What what's it called?

Shelly: 40:27

It's called Beautiful Ashes. I think it's right back there. And I don't know if it's in view or not. I I wrote the memoir, and it it it it it it's the journey through all of this, plus I always say it's it's inspirational story. Well, it's true crime meets inspirational story.

Shelly: 40:51

That's what I say. Because the very the beginning is all of this part. But I I'm at a place where I found a path to healing. I've I've I've found a path to overcoming that. And and in addition to all of this going on in my teenage years, I mean, when you when you're trained to to be silent about abuse in one thing, you're silent about abuse in other things.

Shelly: 41:21

And so I'm a I'm a I'm a rape survivor too. The the same year my mother died, 3 months before I was raped, and 4 months after I was raped again by a different person in a different country. And so I had all of that trauma as well. So I've I've had I've had kind of a cornucopia of of trauma. And and so it took me a long, long, long time to to figure out how to how to mitigate all of that.

Shelly: 41:55

And, I mean, I I've been to the depths of despair, and and now I'm through all of that. I managed to get my bachelor's degree in engineering and my master's degree. I was I own my own home. I was a man in management in the auto industry as an engineer. Actually, by that time, I was a finance controller.

Shelly: 42:18

And, you know, on paper, I'm out in my mid thirties, and so on paper, you're thinking, oh, she's got it all together. Well, I was still praying to die every day, but nobody knew that because I'm functioning and I'm I'm, but I was that depressed just because I hadn't dealt with this whole thing. And so it wasn't until I found the right kind of the right kind of trauma therapy. I did, I did regular talk therapy on and off for, like, 15 years, but that wasn't working for me. I did it it it wasn't enough.

Shelly: 42:58

And and yeah. So I found this, fortunately, I I found a therapist that did a bunch of different things. And so she started off with EMDR, which is pretty mainstream now, but I was still too numb for that to even work for me. So, she she tried another technique. It's called neuro emotional technique or NET, which is neuro emotional technique.

Shelly: 43:23

That was a game changer for me. And so that's what I'm tell tell people is it's it's not a one size fits all. It's like if Weight Watchers works for you and Jenny Craig works for you and keto works for you, then you you have to find what works for you, and and there's more than one way.

Scott: 43:42

Did you use those examples because of me talking about my love for fast food earlier? Are are are you making are you dropping hints that none of those have

Producer Dan: 43:51

worked, Scott?

Scott: 43:54

You know No. Because I've tried them all. Well, it's Scott, it's Weight Watchers or just don't be going to Wendy's for breakfast.

Shelly: 44:04

Okay? Alright.

Scott: 44:06

Well and so what made you you know, I first of all, the message of it's not a one size fits all is something that we've talked about here a lot. You know? We understand that different people need different things, and we're advocates of shopping around for your therapy. You know? Understanding if it's working for you.

Scott: 44:28

Now when you found this therapist who used different methods, tried alternative methods that you haven't tried yet, was there did you seek them out specifically because of the way they worked? Or was there

Shelly: 44:42

No. She well, actually, somebody close to me started seeing her, and they were telling me about the the different things that she was trying. She also did, like, neurofeedback and cranial sacral work. And all of those things actually were far better for me than just talking. And but the the other part is so I went for I I went for, like, two and a half years, twice a week.

Shelly: 45:11

I was hitting it hard, and and I went from praying to die every day to happy and whole. But also during that time period where I was really addressing all the the the trauma issues and and processing all those in a in a healthier way, I decided I was gonna trust God. I I believed in him. I always did. And I know that not everybody has everybody's got a different faith faith.

Shelly: 45:39

But for me, I I decided, well, I read a book it's it was it was called, Believing Christ and and the author talks about well do you believe in him or do you believe him? Meaning, it's great and dandy that you if you believe that he existed. But do you actually believe that he can do what he says he can do which is heal you with the atonement? And so I'm like, okay. Well, maybe I need to trust in this plan, in God's plan for me.

Shelly: 46:16

And and so I started working on my faith in in changing my perspective. And so now I'm a super weirdo in the sense that I look at all adversity, every single thing as an opportunity for growth.

Scott: 46:40

Yeah. That makes sense.

Producer Dan: 46:41

I like that. Because what else are you gonna do with it?

Shelly: 46:44

Well, if you think about it, what is the purpose of life? The purpose of life is to learn and to grow. And in my mind, to develop, all the Christ like characteristics that there there are. And if you're not a Christian, godlike characteristics or moral characteristics of compassion, empathy, patience, humility, long suffering, endurance. Well, just by definition alone, how do you learn long suffering?

Shelly: 47:14

You suffer long. Yeah. So, you know, all the way up to charity. And charity is not, I'm gonna write you a check because you can't eat. It's charity to me is the pure love of Christ for all human humankind.

Shelly: 47:30

All all everybody. And so if if my goal is to achieve these characteristics, how am I gonna be taught? I I can't I can't learn empathy without overcoming hard things. You you can't you can't learn patience without having to to wait patiently. So now I just see everything as an opportunity.

Shelly: 47:58

And and I also learned that, you know, the first thing everyone always asks is why. Right? I mean, Scott, did you ask that question when you walked into the bar and you saw your why why is this happening to me?

Scott: 48:16

Yes. And I quickly learn

Shelly: 48:19

Yeah. What I learned is the answer to why a 100 percent of the time is because I need to learn something. Okay. So I can either choose to focus on why, which you circle the drain in depression and self pity when you start why me, why me, why me. But if you start saying what and how, what am I supposed to be learning and how do I use that to help myself and others?

Shelly: 48:47

Because to me, you you find yourself when you lose yourself in service, and obviously not in a in a way that you're giving more than you than you can. You know? Not in an abusive way, but but but life is a team sport. We're we're here to help each other. And there really is no competition because I succeed and you succeed.

Shelly: 49:19

That's great. I don't have to succeed at your cost. That's not great.

Scott: 49:26

For sure. And I do wanna say that the way I look at the why, in in that moment, why feels like it's backward looking. And it doesn't getting an answer to that question isn't going to bring the satisfaction and peace and closure necessarily that you build it up to be. And it the that's what I like about what you said, like, the what and the how. It's like so the what is moving forward.

Scott: 49:57

What can I do now? How can I work on this? What can I learn? And a lot of what I'm hearing from you, whether it is in your religious faith or somewhere else, therapy, or just trying to be the most moral, good, decent human being you can, It's about being an active participant in your life, not just sitting there, and what happens next happens next. It is trying to take that control, find a direction, and learn something.

Scott: 50:31

Make the best of it. And it sounds like it took you a long time to get there, but you got there. And that's amazing, and a lot of people never do. And looking back, you said, at one point being in your thirties, is is that when, you know, you said you were still hoping to die every day, I think. I hope I'm not misquoting.

Scott: 50:50

Mhmm. Was that around the same time that you found the the new therapy and kind of the went back to your to the your faith more?

Shelly: 50:59

Oh, yeah. That's absolutely the time. This is like Okay. I I gotta do something different. I've I've been kicking against the pricks all this time and, you know, thinking I'm going to succeed by you know, I I had a I I had the the career that I wanted.

Shelly: 51:17

I had the education that I wanted. I owned my own home. I had 2 dogs and a camper and a you know? I Yeah. I I on paper, I I should have been, you know, happy as a clam, but I wasn't.

Shelly: 51:35

So that's when I that's when I went back to and and actually found the right therapist that worked for me and and had this mind shift change.

Scott: 51:44

Yeah. And it sounds like it's worked wonders. And, you know, you were in your mid thirties. You're still you still had a lot of life left. So it's been almost 20 years then since you came to those realizations, and you've got 20, 30, 40 more years.

Scott: 52:00

You know? Hopefully. I can't assume, but, you you you did it. My point is that it's not you know, sometimes even being in your mid thirties, I know we're all out of our mid thirties at this point. But when you're in that time, you think, oh, it's when you're in your mid thirties, you think, oh, I had wasted half my life, and it's like, like, no.

Scott: 52:21

You've got so much more. It's never too late to make some of those changes. So, Shelley, we are up against our time at this point. So I just wanna give you a last chance to, you know, where do you find your book, and is there anything else you wanna promote real quick?

Shelly: 52:37

Yeah. You can find my book on Amazon, or you can go to my website, beautiful ashes memoir.com. And I I'm just I'm just trying to help others find help in their journey, and and there is there's no there's no harm in hurt because if you if you can turn it into a a stepping stone instead of a stumbling block, you're actually further ahead than you you think you are. And I I really I'm I'm grateful at this point for everything that I've been through because I've learned so much. And so the the lessons have been invaluable.

Shelly: 53:23

Were they painful and hard? Absolutely. But there's there's nothing that's insurmountable, and and that's why I'm doing podcasts. That's why I wrote my book. That's why I'm I'm out here.

Shelly: 53:37

I'm trying to give hope to others in their own journey because life isn't easy for anybody and everybody is gonna be pushed through their breaking points. Absolutely every single person more than once, and it's just a matter in how we get there.

Scott: 53:58

Wow. That's great. And, Shelley, I am so happy that you were willing to come on and share with us. This was Yeah.

Producer Dan: 54:04

Thank you so much.

Scott: 54:05

This was incredible. I'm humbled. I always say we're humbled and honored, and I'd never know why people are so willing to share and be so open with just a couple of guys who wanna talk about fast food and trauma. But but thank you so much for being on today.

Shelly: 54:22

Thank you for having me.

Scott: 54:24

For sure. And listeners, don't forget that you can follow us follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Positively Terrible. You can send us an email as well if you wanna tell your story to to podcast at positivelyterrible.com. And as always, today has been absolutely, positively terrible. I was right.