Producer Dan (00:01.514)
You're tuned into Positively Terrible. I'm producer Dan and each week, my buddy Scott and I discuss surviving and thriving after trauma. It's a journey that started when Scott, his wife's fiance and her boyfriend walked into a bar. This week's Decent Human Being is Heidi. She's got a fucked up story about Columbine. Settle in my terrible listeners. Today's episode is going to be Positively Terrible. Hey Scott.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (00:26.471)
Hey Dan, how are ya?

Producer Dan (00:28.906)
Man, I'm doing pretty good today. How are you?

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (00:31.475)
Yeah, I'm doing all right. I'm feeling good. Always feeling good when we're here recording. We're about to hit the holidays. We're a few days away from Christmas. This is going to air after, well after Christmas, but Dan, happy holidays.

Producer Dan (00:48.174)
Hey, thanks. Happy holidays to you. And I did something today I haven't done in a long time. Right before we got on with the microphones tonight, I had a whopper. I haven't had a whopper in a real long time.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (00:53.846)
What's that?

Okay.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (01:02.683)
I am going to admit something that I really like Whoppers. Do you get cheese on it? Ah, okay, okay. The original chicken sandwich at Burger King is pretty good too. We're not getting paid for this though. So just know that. This is my genuine reaction. I hear Burger King and I will admit that I've had a Whopper recently too. So we're Whopper buddies today. Heidi, welcome. How do you feel about Burger King?

Producer Dan (01:07.434)
Yeah, of course.

Producer Dan (01:15.664)
But we'll take some of that big whopper money if they want to sponsor the show.

Heidi (01:30.989)
Yeah. I mean, honestly, I love their impossible Whopper. I feel like it tastes just like a Whopper. It's so good.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (01:37.616)
Oh really?

Okay. All right. Well, I'm glad you're not shaming us for eating the occasional fast food. Okay. All right. I haven't gone down the path of the impossible meats yet.

Heidi (01:50.413)
Whoppers are amazing, 100%.

Producer Dan (01:54.478)
Appreciate it.

Heidi (02:01.613)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (02:05.746)
I don't think that's super important. Maybe we'll educate people. You can educate us later on. But Heidi, what are you here to talk about today?

Heidi (02:10.169)
Thank you.

Heidi (02:14.077)
Yeah, so I'm here to talk about my experience in the library at Columbine, on the Columbine shooting, 20 years ago actually, a long time ago.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (02:24.061)
Yeah.

Producer Dan (02:25.995)
It feels like yesterday. Uh, and man, that is a long time ago.

Heidi (02:29.001)
It does. Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (02:33.219)
Yeah, things have changed a bit since then. Some for the better. But Heidi, you know, first, I lead in with this, this maybe a little too chipper. What brings you here today when we're going to talk about something that for a lot of the country and possibly the world is kind of this, this major event in our lives, even those of us who weren't near it to experience it. And I was in college at the time and

Heidi (02:55.949)
Yeah.

Heidi (03:00.867)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (03:02.731)
I've talked to people about their experience and people who were in high school at the time or in grade school at the time have had a much different experience than I did. Of course, your experience is something that I'd never wish on anyone, but I want to talk to you about that a little bit. What was it like in Littleton and Columbine before this happened?

Heidi (03:21.733)
Thank you.

Heidi (03:33.165)
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I was a sophomore when it happened, so very new in high school. And...

Like honestly, it was a normal high school, right? Like you go to school, you never anticipate anything bad happening. You know, maybe you get bullied a little bit and Columbine was a huge, it was a huge school. And so I felt like you could very easily just get lost in the mix of the school and did honestly, as a humble, humble softball.

I was very much so just kind of a, I would say, speck on the wall in a lot of ways where it was insignificant. And yeah, there was nothing in my mind that would ever, ever anticipate something like this happening, truly.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (04:36.411)
I think that was a time in this country where nobody would have.

Heidi (04:40.001)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (04:43.271)
What do you remember about that day?

Heidi (04:43.619)
Yep.

Heidi (04:46.845)
Yeah, so, you know, that day I had gone to my morning classes, everything started truly as normal and decided to go to the library during my lunch hour, which wasn't abnormal for me. I was going through a weird friend transition and kind of preferred solitude in a lot of ways. And

Heidi (05:16.959)
that faced the mountains. I mean, anyone who's not from Colorado can appreciate that we have amazing mountain views and like our school at Columbine just faced all of those. And so it was beautiful to be able to sit in the library and to look out at the front range while being able to do your work. And so I sat down at a table and began working on my homework for that day, trying to get everything done.

because I was actually transferring to a different school and had cheerleading tryouts at that school so I'm like I absolutely need to get all of my homework done now because I have to make it to cheerleading tryouts for the next day and so I sat down at the table a couple minutes in just started hearing loud bangs started going off

and it was around the end of the year there was a big anticipation for the senior class playing a prank on the entire school which they were known to do to play a prank and they would do it in epic proportions and so I thought that that's what was happening is that I was in the midst of a senior

Heidi (06:39.583)
banging sound that was coming through. So I thought senior prank then I kind of started thinking maybe construction never registered it was a gun going off and didn't like register with me at all and it

Couple moments passed by and I'm still sitting at my table and a teacher comes running into the room and she was, I just remember incredibly pale and she just was saying, a kid has been shot, a kid has been shot, everybody get under your tables. And so I got under my table and just, there was about six chairs around my table and I remember pulling every single chair as close to my body as I possibly could.

hood, still not really anticipating what was happening, like still thinking that this is not real, like that the reality of it had not hit me yet. And so I was just hovered underneath my table.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (07:40.862)
Yeah.

Heidi (07:48.361)
and these pipe bombs start going off. And it basically unleashes all of the smoke into the library where there is just fire alarms going off because of the smoke. There's just a haze that it creates in the entire space. And I remember because of where I was positioned in the library, I look over to my right and through literally the smoke, and this sounds cinematic,

but it's true, is I look over to the right and I see these black figures enter the library, these almost shadow-like figures enter the library, and I see on them artillery strapped on their shoulders and AK-47s or rifles in their hands, and they basically say to everybody, "'Get ready to die' is what they say." And they essentially just start

shooting throughout the entire library.

and I hear shot after shot being fired, children, or not children, but teenagers screaming, like just, I can't believe that you shot him. Why did you do that? They come over to my area and I literally see, there was like computer cubbies in front of me. They put their gun under the computer cubby and basically just pulled a trigger.

I see what was essentially a...

Heidi (09:25.925)
person who was under this computer cubby become almost limp and it was Really really hard to see They started shooting around me And I just keep bracing truly for impact and thinking I'm next. This is my last moment on earth and what happens essentially in that moment is you it's almost like a flip book of your life and you

just see the pictures of the people and the things that you care the most about. And I saw my parents, my sisters, my dogs, basically just as a flip book in front of me thinking, am I ever going to see or experiencing these people again? And I am looking through the...

Heidi (10:22.386)
the spaces of my table in the library and I can see their boots as they stomp past me and I keep thinking I'm next. So like I see their boot, I see the shells of their gun falling to the ground and I keep thinking I'm next.

And basically what happens is they come to what is really in front of my table at the library. They start having a conversation and they say, we're going to blow up the rest of this school. And

They're talking with each other, then they start talking to us basically and they say, don't worry, you guys are all going to be dead soon. You're all going to be on fire soon. And they are talking about setting off this bomb underneath us. And they have this conversation for quite a while.

and then eventually they leave the library. And I, because of where my table is positioned, I'm able to see them leave the library. I like actually physically see them exit. And so after I see them exit, I'm one of the first students that gets up from under their table and notice there's other students that are doing so as well. And one of the students has been shot in the shoulder. There's blood literally just pouring down her shoulder.

and she is in total shock.

Heidi (12:12.161)
we all just start kind of strategizing between us. Like, what do we do? Where do we go? How do we get out of here? We run towards this hallway where I see there's like this conference room and I'm like, hey, maybe we can lock ourselves in this conference room. And someone else is like, no, there's an emergency exit. And so we run towards this emergency exit. I remember just like pushing against, you know,

of the emergency exit and then after I get out I see a cop car and there's these police officers that are just motioning to us like come here come here and we basically get behind the cop car and more and more students start to trickle that way and finally despite feeling so we are safe and we are able

finally get to even a safer place at that time.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (13:19.123)
Wow. I'm, I've got, I've got questions written down. And well, no, I, they don't even feel important right now. I'm, I'm struggling already.

Heidi (13:25.509)
Sure, yeah.

Producer Dan (13:34.95)
All right. I got some questions. They're practical. Okay.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (13:36.391)
Well, I still have them, but go ahead, Dan.

Producer Dan (13:40.77)
So I mean, one, thank you for sharing all this. Thank you.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (13:46.238)
Yes.

Heidi (13:46.402)
Yeah.

Producer Dan (13:50.706)
hell of an experience up to this point. And.

I want to know what happens next that day. Um, so you're behind the cop car. Then you get to a slightly safer place. Um, I mean, the whole country is watching this. What happened to you and what did it feel like for the next several hours?

Heidi (14:00.479)
Hmm. Yeah.

Heidi (14:08.164)
Yeah.

Heidi (14:14.381)
Yeah, it's a great question. So we're behind this cop car, and I am seeing my fellow students, like one student has been shot, I don't know how many times in the leg.

and is just crying out in pain. And I hear another student who is like quizzing him on sociology because they're just trying to keep his mind off of the fact that he has all these gunshots in his leg. So I remember that very vividly.

Heidi (14:54.293)
eventually another cop car comes to where we're at and they're like get in and we're like okay so me and a bunch of other students pile into this other cop car.

that drives fucking crazy to this other neighborhood. Like we're just like, okay, like we're in for the ride. We end up in this cul-de-sac and basically we just kind of camp there and there's all these wounded students, news crews start showing up, ambulances start showing up. It just becomes this epicenter of activity in a lot of ways.

So I'm there with other students. We kind of gather and try and comfort each other. And I essentially end up at this house that I loosely knew the girl and her family takes care of me. And I call my mom. And I am going to get emotional because I call my mom. And I said, hi, mom.

she said, Heidi, like, how you doing? And I'm like, I'm okay. And she's like, did you see people die? And I said, yeah. And I call my dad and similar conversation and my dad says to me, I'm coming to get you.

Heidi (16:32.137)
And what I think a lot of people don't understand in the chaos of these moments is that...

Heidi (16:43.753)
everything just like, it's like, so you have this major event, the shooting that happens, but then there's all of these ripple effects that result in it just being true chaos and trying to figure out what happens next. And so essentially, I'm at this house that I really don't know these people and I'm watching the news and watching what unfolds. We had

People showing up at Columbine that were wanting to cause stuff like it was just Chaos it really was chaos and So I'm waiting at this house. I mean they were super sweet. They give me juice. They're like, how can we take care of you? I'm just watching the news truly like in trauma Waiting for my family to show up It wasn't until five o'clock that night

knock on the door and it was my dad and he shows up and he's finally there to get me and go home and I found out that in that my dad had to like

truly go through police barricades. He ran red lights. He was doing whatever it took. I think that there was somebody that was in that neighborhood where I was that he like crossed a police line, got their car, drove to where I was at to get to where I was to see me.

It wasn't like I said until like so the shooting happened at like 11 o'clock. He got to me around 5 p.m. And so it was a long wait. And I mean, truly, when you've gone through something as traumatic and as life threatening as that was to wait till you can see your family was just. Really, really hard. But the fact that my dad got to me was amazing.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (18:48.167)
Just gotta be. Yeah.

Heidi (18:55.075)
the end of the day. So yes, shout out to dad.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (18:56.983)
Well, shout out to dad. And one of the questions that I always think whenever there is kind of a large event, and far too often in this country, it is a mass shooting, is the responsibility, the duty of the media. And I'm very interested in your take because

Heidi (19:15.044)
Yeah.

Heidi (19:19.971)
Hmm.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (19:26.599)
The chaos that you described, there's a lot of information that has not been confirmed, there's speculation. You know, I think back to 9-11 and it was like, how many planes are in the sky still? How many are they gonna hit the Capitol, the White House? And all of this information makes it into the media. And there is a duty to provide news, in my opinion. But at what...

Heidi (19:37.539)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (19:56.059)
point is it doing harm? Do you have an opinion on that?

Heidi (20:01.989)
That's a really profound question. I mean, in the aftermath of the shooting, we, Littleton, Colorado, like little, Littleton, Colorado became the hub of the entire world. And we had every major news outlet present in our little tiny city. And I remember going out the day after the shooting and...

I was interviewed by Dateline. Sorry, I shouldn't, maybe name names, but I was interviewed by, okay.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (20:38.459)
No, that's perfectly fine.

Heidi (20:42.617)
And I just remember the sensitivity of the moment being gone. And so I completely understand the fact that we need to tell this story. It's important. It's important for our nation. But we cannot lose humanity in that moment. We cannot lose the fact that people are suffering in that moment. And that, to me, was lost.

and some of the journalists that were there and the way that they particularly treated me who was a survivor. And I remember vividly where I was giving an interview about what I had gone through and the trauma that I had experienced. And I was with my youth pastor at the time and he was telling me that it was time for me to go,

me and I said okay I have to get going and she said you need to answer the question like basically just negating my trauma in that moment

And so I think what I have seen, not from all, but from several journalists, especially in the aftermath of these traumatic events, is that it becomes almost like a utilitarian, like zero, like we need to get the story. That is what we're trying to do is we're trying to get the story. And I remember them filling in blanks of my story. And I'm like, no, that's not what I'm trying to say. And I think that is long.

you keep the humanity of the moment, you can tell that story, but you can't lose that in a lot of ways.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (22:32.911)
Yeah, and I want to disagree with something you said a little earlier when you said children and then said, well, not children, but teenagers. You're a child. You were a child.

Heidi (22:41.193)
Yeah, it is children. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, that's a good disagreement.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (22:48.515)
You didn't have a chance. I mean, you're being asked about it from a kid's perspective without the ability to process. And I don't know what processing that looks like, but you haven't even had that opportunity and you're being asked questions and not being treated.

Heidi (22:57.87)
Yeah.

Heidi (23:04.333)
Right.

Heidi (23:09.026)
Right.

Heidi (23:12.579)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (23:15.575)
is delicately sounds because you're right, you can tell a story and still save that humanity.

Heidi (23:24.705)
It's a really good.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (23:24.891)
while to me, what I'll even say is talking to you today, like I said, to start, I'm struggling already. For someone who is in Illinois and completely lacking those beautiful mountain views, lot of corn, a lot of corn, but as someone who has lived 40 plus years now in Illinois, it was

Heidi (23:45.433)
I'm sorry.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (23:53.391)
a tragedy, it was a story, it was a moment, but hearing a first-hand account, not just hearing it, but having it told to me is something that

Heidi (24:10.949)
and I'll see you next time.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (24:11.423)
It hurts. It's 20 plus years later. And I can't help but feel for you and every other person that was there. And as I'm thinking about questions that we could ask, and I don't even know how to talk about it sometimes. Because I think, like, how many victims? And everyone was a victim.

Heidi (24:33.517)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (24:35.515)
Every fucking person that was there, everybody's family. I mean, what happened to Littleton after that? It sounds like, I mean, everyone converges on this city for a story. And then what's next? What happened? How did the town change?

Heidi (24:56.321)
Yeah, so I think...

It's such a good question.

I mean, you think about like you mentioned 9-11 and just how that completely changed our country. Columbine was the same way. It was something that just changed the consciousness of our country. Like what is capable of humanity became real at Columbine and then continued to become real as we see these things continue to happen. And so.

In Littleton, I would say that there was a sense of initial camaraderie where we all came together and there was a huge sense of community and then it just...

Sadly saying which I feel like happens in a lot of these cases went back to business as usual Where people and I and it's like I don't honestly don't know what to have expected differently But it's like everybody just kind of got back on with their lives as best as they could However, I know for me personally for other like survivors who are really at the epicenter is it wasn't as easy for us to just get back to

Heidi (26:19.099)
business as usual. That well, maybe some other people were able to, and I think that was a coping strategy for the town is let's just move forward. You know, that wasn't always the case for all of us. I will say that it did become a little bit of a...

Heidi (26:43.713)
I'm trying like a memorial, like a memorial, but also like a, I'm trying to think of the word where it becomes a place that people want to see, to believe almost. And so we would have a lot of people come to Columbine or come to the town almost just wanting to see it. And kind of a little bit like, and it's like we have a memorial.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (26:57.596)
Yeah.

Producer Dan (27:08.079)
Just like a morbid tourist trap.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (27:11.911)
Yeah.

Heidi (27:13.881)
So people would take pictures at the memorial. They would maybe lay flowers at the school. They'd want to see the school. It became like almost like a pop culturally like type of thing where people would want to witness it firsthand because it was like such, I think a

unbelievable event and so if people can see it maybe that would bring some reality to it.

I don't know, but that was something that we faced for truly a long time where I would see bicolumbine flowers, posters, that type of thing. You know, post-columbine, immediately post-columbine, the park right next to it was literally covered in like posters, flowers, teddy bears, everything.

Heidi (28:14.675)
um memorandum to what had happened so uh you know that was an interesting thing to see for sure.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (28:24.751)
Yeah. And I will say on a lighter note that I've drive by the home alone house north of Chicago every, every once in a while, uh, to take a look and gawk at that. Um, so I, it, and it's pretty fucking boring to go look at a place is kind of the relation that I had. And Dan, I wanted to lighten the mood just a little bit. Um, one day I'll tell you about the

Producer Dan (28:38.939)
it's same thing Scott same thing

Heidi (28:50.26)
Yes. So traumatic.

Producer Dan (28:51.574)
He was left alone. It was also traumatic.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (28:56.508)
Well, one day I'll tell the story about how I was in the auditorium as an extra at Home Alone 2. We never got on the... We never actually made it into the film though, but I was sure because my hair looked so good that day. It was probably the last time my hair looked good that I was going to be in the movie. I was like, they can't come on. I am looking good today. So sorry. Sorry about that.

Heidi (29:20.075)
You pursue it.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (29:24.411)
I do want to back up and ask a question about your family, your parents. Have you ever asked them like how they found out? Like what was the moment like for them? Have they told you?

Heidi (29:39.571)
Yeah, um...

In all of that super interesting and relevant to my story, my dad actually was in remission from Hodgkin's lymphoma during the shooting and then two years after the shooting ended up passing away. And so his role in that point of my story is incredibly profound and significant for me.

Heidi (30:11.759)
what I know.

is that they were witnessing all of this unfold on the news. And hearing about that there was this mass shooting having very little details, which I'm sure, like even today we can relate to where we're not sure what exactly has happened until several hours after the event. And they're wondering truly if I'm still alive. And they're being told that the

And most of the violence is taking place in the library and they knew my routine and knew that might be a place that I would go. And so...

they were incredibly worried about me. From my dad's perspective, and he and I post Columbine traveled and spoke and shared our story in a lot of different forums, but he would talk about how important it was for him as a dad to get to me. That he seeing and understanding the trauma that his daughter, knowing that she had just survived

this, wanted nothing more than just to get to me and that he was willing to break any law truly, break through any police barricade, didn't matter, run any red light and just get to me. And I remember when he would speak and again, I'll get emotional.

Heidi (31:52.685)
But he said that when I saw you, Heidi, it was a reunion beyond words.

because I didn't think I'd ever see you again.

Producer Dan (32:03.731)
I like your dad.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (32:10.611)
Thank you for sharing everything. And we're not done, but it's incredibly hard. And I'm trying to figure out if you're extremely lucky or extremely unlucky. And the reason I say that is because a lot of what I'm hearing, I hear, you said that it was during your lunch period. And from what I understand in some reading is that the cafeteria and the library were like two very

Heidi (32:28.203)
Right?

Heidi (32:40.001)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (32:40.419)
important parts of this plot. And then you said that you're transferring schools. It's like you're so close to getting away from this, but also so close to being in the middle of it.

Heidi (32:47.833)
Yep.

Heidi (32:54.958)
I know! Yeah, yes I did.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (32:57.415)
But you fucking lived.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (33:01.799)
But on the other hand, I never want to see anything like that either. And then to have your dad.

willing to move mountains, it sounds like, to get to you. I just.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (33:18.663)
Are there words for this? I mean, when I say are you lucky or unlucky, how do you feel?

Heidi (33:24.109)
I mean, I feel incredibly lucky. And I've been able to live such a full life. Has it been tinged by this trauma 100%? But.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (33:41.452)
Is tins the right word? I think I would have gone with something stronger.

Producer Dan (33:42.926)
Thanks for watching.

Heidi (33:43.829)
Yeah, right? Like, yeah, give me a better adjective for that. Like, yes, exactly. I don't know. I feel though.

Producer Dan (33:48.782)
Hehehehe

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (33:48.987)
Yeah, I can't come up with one. I can't. It's a fucked up story. I'm just gonna say that.

Heidi (34:02.453)
I feel incredibly grateful. Like I have.

Heidi (34:08.586)
I have an amazing son who I've been able to adopt and bring into my life and who just is truly the entire world to me. I've been able to do what I would say is very meaningful work that I feel like makes the world better. I also, and this is, I mean, this is maybe one of my mantras is there is so much fucking

world and there are so many people that experience things that are beyond what I experienced and they need people like me who are going to have some sort of compassion and ability to resonate with what they've gone through and apart from people like me I don't know that they'll have that like unless you go through something that is at this trauma level like truly as much as it fucking

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (34:37.404)
Yeah.

Heidi (35:05.999)
sucks I know

it's like at some small level to experience what life is like in maybe a war zone or maybe like I mean and I'm not comparing that at all because I feel like my experience is much less than that but like I have some sort of semblance of what that looks like and so I can bring some kind of maybe help in that situation or compassion in that situation. You know there are many people that have experienced traumas way

way worse or more chronic than what I experience that I feel like the world needs people like me to be able to have this experience and have compassion for what it feels like to have to go through the aftermath of that and then want to see like my hope especially like here in the US

So many shootings take place and I know what it's like to be a survivor. I know what it's like to have to pick up the pieces after that. The world needs people like me that can help people like them that have gone through that, if that makes sense.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (36:33.111)
Well, it makes a ton of sense and is more or less the definition of a decent fucking human. You know, when we started this, when Dan read the intro, you may have noticed he said when Scott, his wife's fiance and her boyfriend walked into a bar, I discovered my wife's secret lives. She was abusive. She gaslit me. There's a lot to it.

Heidi (36:40.069)
I'm sorry.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (37:02.279)
And within days, someone who I knew shared their experience with me after I shared my experience with them. In finding someone else who went through something that I thought that, in the moment you feel like you're the only person in the world. And we've had other guests who talk about their experiences and like the experience pre-internet when one of our guests had cancer at 18.

Heidi (37:16.601)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (37:29.123)
and there was no internet like there is today and couldn't find people like him, you feel extremely alone. And just, I'm so happy that you're able to do this. And doing this show is an extraordinarily fulfilling thing for me and I can only imagine.

We can only do a fraction of what someone who's been through something like that can do. And I do want to ask a question about that. The way I said that, it's 20 plus years later, and I'm saying things like, oh, someone who's been through that.

Do you ever feel, I mean, how does that make you feel that when people hear you say, I was at Columbine, I lived in Littleton, that there's a reaction, even if they don't say anything, you know that there's a reaction inside them. How does that make you feel?

Heidi (38:37.525)
I mean, in a lot of ways I understand. We were, as I mentioned before, I feel like Columbine, similar to 9-11, truly changed this country. And...

So for people to have that in their minds makes sense to me. It breaks my heart. Like I wish that this would have been a blip on our nation's history, that we would have truly learned from it and move forward and had made the necessary changes. I mean, like if we compare our, if we compare Columbine to 9-11,

Heidi (39:24.805)
nothing like 9-11 has happened on American soil since. Things like Columbine are happening in increasing frequency. And our nation, yes, yeah, it's like we are a case study that nobody seems to learn the lesson from. And that is incredibly frustrating for me. I would have loved.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (39:36.787)
Yeah. And a lot of times they cite Columbine, right?

Heidi (39:52.485)
for this to have been a...

you know, something that happened and then never happened again, but it is re traumatizing for me, let alone how hard I mean, like it is horrific. It is absolutely horrific whenever a shooting takes place, but it is re traumatizing for all of us victims whenever something similar happens in this country and it is happening with way too much frequency now. And so I just

I look at that and I just say like, why is it that we cannot figure this out? We are an incredibly smart country. We are the richest country in the world. We have the most resources in the world.

How can we figure this out? What is wrong with the US that we cannot figure out how to stop mass shootings when it is not happening in any other place in the developed world? Where would they have the same mental health problems that we have? What is it about us that we continue to experience this?

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (41:02.139)
And Heidi, I'm gonna come back to that in just a second because I think that's an extraordinarily important topic that I'm sure you've got views on. But when it does happen, when it does happen, and I'm gonna say this, it might sound like I'm making light of it a little bit, but it's a sincere question. Like, when this happens, is there...

Heidi (41:04.482)
Yeah.

Heidi (41:10.869)
Yeah, just a little bit.

Heidi (41:22.094)
Thank you.

Heidi (41:27.62)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (41:30.707)
And this is the part that's gonna sound like I'm making light. Like, is there like a phone tree at this point? Are there people from your life who experience this with you and people who you've maybe met in the years since who have been through similar things that it's like, oh shit, Heidi's calling, this isn't good. I mean, is there this coming together every time? Is there the community coming together every time this happens?

Heidi (41:57.865)
Yeah, I mean, I will say that when a shooting happens, I have certain people in my life that always check up on me. And I appreciate it beyond words when they say, how are you doing? Because they know that trauma knows no timeline, and that just because it's been 20 years that like, oh, all of a sudden you should be healed and fine. That no, there is still triggers, and there are still things that are difficult.

also still good friends with people who were present at the shooting and it is a bond that we share that is not like other bonds like you just kind of get it with each other in a very sad but also hopeful way if that makes sense so there's both sides to that for sure.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (42:58.419)
What? I mean, I guess I was going to make an assumption, but I won't. I will just ask the question. So have you spent time researching, understanding the response, understanding different strategies there could be to prevent this?

Heidi (43:23.115)
I have.

in a way, I mean, not in a very, I would say, academic way. My work has focused mainly on global humanitarian work, but from what I have done, I have worked with some key groups. I don't know if I can name them here, but they are big in the, is that okay? Like every town for gun safety, I've done a little bit of work with Moms to Me in Action.

Producer Dan (43:46.887)
Oh yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (43:47.413)
Yes, please, actually.

Heidi (43:54.339)
I actually went to the Capitol and worked with a really interfaith, I would say bipartisan group that we basically looked for common sense gun solutions, basically just demanding action in some level, because I feel like our nation is so incredibly frozen as it relates to anything that is tied to...

anything tied to gun legislation whatsoever, even if it is bipartisan, even if it does have both sides of the aisle saying, we rubber stamp this, there's just such a trepidation as it relates to our second amendment rights. And so,

There have been some work that I've done on that. But I would say as far as like a deep dive research place, I haven't done a huge deep dive on that.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (45:00.091)
But you probably have more knowledge than the average human being.

Heidi (45:05.985)
Maybe.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (45:08.023)
And well, one of the things that I wanted to ask, and we do avoid politics as much as we can on here. I believe that there are things that shaped your worldview though, and we're happy to hear what you have to say about them. But one of the question, yeah, and I will, but I do wanna ask about one of the things that I've started hearing of late,

Heidi (45:16.613)
Sure. Good thing.

Producer Dan (45:25.138)
And we probably agree pretty strongly.

Heidi (45:25.186)
Yeah.

Heidi (45:28.612)
Okay.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (45:36.727)
And maybe it's been said for the last 20 plus years, but after a school shooting or any mass shooting that gets national attention, I start hearing people say, well, don't politicize this. And to me, again, I don't like to get into the politics on the podcast, but to me, this is inherently political. And I want to know.

Heidi (45:52.245)
Yes.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (46:06.403)
I do want to know, like, what are your opinions of some things that we maybe should try or could do?

Heidi (46:14.549)
Yeah, and I mean, again, I am absolutely no expert and don't have the research behind me for this, but I will say from my limited studies, I...

If you look at the rest of the developed world and countries that are similar to the United States, people will try and call out mental health as maybe being the issue for the reason why we have increased shootings. And we are not unlike any other country that is within our peer group for that.

Heidi (46:54.949)
I think that what the United States, truthfully speaking, has that is unique is our absolute love affair with guns and the easy access that we have to firearms and how if somebody has a moment of crisis can very easily carry out.

a horrific act and that may be a mass shooting. Oftentimes it's a domestic violence act. Sometimes it's a suicide. The chances of a suicide being successful with a firearm are so much higher than with any other method. So I just feel like there is something to be said about the

Heidi (47:52.591)
speaking very, very honestly here, has more guns than it has people. Like that is something that I think we need to critically look at as a country and assess why is it that we have more mass shootings?

than any other country in our peer group. And that to me is the outlier, is the fact that we have such an incredible love affair with guns. Not to say that people shouldn't own guns, not to say that we want to take all of that away, but I do think that there is something to be said and analyzed about that. And I think that it has, because of the Second Amendment, gained so much protection.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (48:23.964)
Yeah. And Heidi.

Heidi (48:43.111)
that it has basically been this issue that nobody is able to really even address or look at because of that.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (48:53.479)
Well, sure, and the Second Amendment can still be protected, in my opinion, with some common sense. And I'm also going to say, and possibly get a little mad, so I'm not going to dwell on this part, but when people say mental health, well, what the fuck are we doing about people's mental health? Even if that's not the reason, even if that's not the problem, I literally, I believe it was

Heidi (49:00.757)
Yes. 100%.

Heidi (49:08.749)
Love it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (49:21.703)
Well, you know, I'm not going to name states or whatever, but some high level politicians after a mass shooting, I believe it was at a school came out and said it was, you know, we need more mental health resources and these same politicians voted against mental health funding several months earlier. So instead of doing nothing, let's just fucking do something. Let's do something. Yeah. God.

Heidi (49:34.553)
Yes.

Heidi (49:42.39)
Yeah.

Heidi (49:47.262)
Yes, fucking do something, 100%. Yes, love it.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (49:50.907)
just put that on a t-shirt Dan let's fucking do something I think Nike already says just do it but let's fucking do something I do have a question about the shooters and I don't want you to get in their head and I'd prefer not to say their name their names has been publicized enough over the years do you think

Producer Dan (49:53.331)
I'm going to write that down right now.

Heidi (49:57.937)
Just...

Heidi (50:13.539)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (50:19.919)
I know there's conspiracy theories, there's other theories that are not conspiracy theories, but just people trying to explain what happened. Do you think that's, do you think it's helpful or productive to try to get into their minds? Or is this problem so big that the why in their heads doesn't matter?

Heidi (50:25.669)
Sure.

Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (50:45.315)
I know I didn't add that like a question, but that was the end of my question.

Heidi (50:51.137)
It's a really, like it's such a profound question because I, like you said, not, without trying to get into their heads and figure out why these things happen. Yeah, I don't.

I can say 20 years out, this is me speaking personally, I have compassion for where they were at. I don't, I mean.

This is just me again, speaking personally. And I feel like there is a tendency to demonize people who commit these acts, which I get, I mean, they're horrific, horrific acts that destroy lives and create waves and waves of trauma. However, I don't know what it takes for a soul to reach a point where they would get so incredibly desperate

so incredibly callous to just carry out an act like this. And I don't know if it was a cry for help. I don't know if they had reached out and never found what they were looking for. And I personally for my own humanity's sake would like to believe that about them. Would like to believe that that's what they were trying to do. But I again like

I mean, people are going to call whomever commits these atrocities monsters, they're going to look at them as other human. And it's a way of just us saying that this could never ever be us and never ever.

Heidi (52:39.661)
be someone that is maybe related to us that would ever commit something like this. And I think that we need to see that there is a point in humanity that maybe would be a breaking point to lead to something like this and that we need to look at what we can do to make sure that doesn't happen, if that makes sense.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (53:00.931)
It makes a ton of sense and was literally a question that I still had left that is there a compassionate way to view the incident. And I will tell you that I was gonna say a small personal tragedy in my family, which isn't small, just smaller than a mass shooting that changed the country in history.

but my cousin murdered my aunt.

And I think that even my parents have a different view of this than I do. And I don't blame them. Like this is my dad's sister, right? But.

Heidi (53:45.442)
Yes.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (53:49.171)
He didn't just destroy his mom's life, his dad's life, his brother's life. He destroyed his. And some of that, I believe there were drugs involved, some of that was mistakes made that came from a very dark place.

Heidi (53:54.305)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (54:09.811)
And 10, 20, 30 years from now when he's still in prison, and hopefully not the same person that he was the day that happened, his life is still just altered in a way that he could never change.

Heidi (54:27.169)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (54:29.335)
And I do have compassion toward him. And if I'm being honest, I don't really know him. They didn't live in state.

Heidi (54:33.154)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (54:39.835)
But life is complicated.

Heidi (54:43.341)
Yeah, and the darkness that people feel in those moments, I feel like that's something that, I mean, we've all experienced those dark moments. And I will say this.

Access to firearms in dark moments is not a great combination. I think that studies prove that in so many ways as far as We we as the human experience know that we're all going to go through dark times. That is part of being human We're all going to have moments where it is incredibly desolate and if we have access to Something that is able to hurt

ourselves or hurt somebody else that can amplify itself in ways that we see, I think on the regular basis in the news. So I think that that's something that we as a country need to kind of come to grips with.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (55:52.115)
We all have things that we've done in our weakest moments and combine a lot of other factors.

Heidi (55:56.181)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yes.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (56:02.415)
And it can be a lot worse. And it is for places like Columbine. And I'm just, Heidi, I'm incredibly impressed. I really am. I do wanna know what just walked behind you. Is that the child? What was?

Heidi (56:04.612)
Yes.

Heidi (56:21.477)
What was the kid? He had to get some water at 9.15pm apparently.

Producer Dan (56:27.17)
Hehe

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (56:29.045)
It's sometimes that's important. Sometimes it's very important. Was there a hat on? What was going on? I saw something green.

Heidi (56:35.597)
No, so he, yeah, he wears that to bed to help his hair in the morning.

Producer Dan (56:42.09)
Nice.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (56:43.247)
Yeah. How old is he?

Heidi (56:46.69)
Peace, 10.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (56:48.883)
Does he know anything about this?

Heidi (56:51.293)
I've told him a little bit about it. It's part of who I am. And in all honesty, so me and my ex-husband, we adopted him from Congo. And he has some trauma without me getting into any details about it. But he has some trauma in his past. And me, going through what I went through, as I talk about.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (56:57.053)
Yeah.

Heidi (57:19.897)
Being able to resonate and understand trauma, I feel like I was able to show up for him in ways that I would not have been able to had I not gone through Columbine.

Producer Dan (57:29.431)
Yeah.

Heidi (57:35.501)
because of the trauma that I experienced. And I was able to walk him through things that I don't think I would have been able to had I not gone through what I went through. And I can say, and I'm so incredibly proud that he is, from all appearances, from everything else, he is a healthy, functioning child despite whatever beginnings he had in life.

saying that's because of me but I do feel like it's because I had a part to play in helping him heal through some traumatic things that he experienced so

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (58:20.615)
Well, I said I was incredibly impressed with you, and I'm gonna take that back, because I'm now more incredibly impressed. So if there's, what is, are there different magnitudes of incredibly, more incredibly, I don't know what it is, but I'm certainly, I mean, Heidi, wow. I don't wish anything like this on anyone.

Heidi (58:28.289)
I'm sorry.

Heidi (58:33.125)
I'm sorry.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (58:47.751)
but it takes a hell of a human being, a decent fucking human even, to survive to what it sounds to me like thrive after all of this. And to turn.

something so tragic into even just even just a stable life sounds like a challenge and not to go back to the bad stuff but as I was reading

Heidi (59:12.514)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (59:21.375)
The deaths didn't stop that day. And from my understanding that there's been, you know, people who have taken their life, not just students, but family members.

Heidi (59:24.505)
Yeah.

Heidi (59:30.893)
Yep.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (59:37.454)
and

I don't... I've got zero judgment. Zero. None.

Heidi (59:45.401)
Absolutely. Me too. I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (59:50.035)
but you're resilient and I'm just impressed. And I'm so, God damn it, I'm so happy you're here with us today. I think that, you know, that we cover a lot of traumas. I mean, that's what we do. And it's incredibly important to be vulnerable and to share and to build a community and to help people know that it's gonna be okay. And...

Heidi (59:57.517)
Thank you. That means a lot.

Heidi (01:00:18.405)
Yeah, absolutely. Yep, we're not alone in this. I said we're not alone.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (01:00:20.815)
You know, I know I'm uncomfortable with people. That's it? I didn't hear that.

Heidi (01:00:28.165)
Like I think that that's what's important about telling these stories. And I commend you guys for having the platform for that is that it creates spaces to tell people that you're not alone going through whatever. I mean, like even if it's a different experience, they're similar. We experience similar emotions. And so I think the more that we're able to tell our stories and safe places truly

and each other's healing and as part of being in community, which I think in the United States is so easy to be isolated and individualistic and alone, but we need this. We need things like this.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (01:01:16.511)
For sure. Dan, you've been quiet.

Producer Dan (01:01:20.526)
but I have been listening, enjoying it. And yeah, enjoying the conversation. You're a hell of a person, Heidi. And

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (01:01:28.593)
The words are... Sometimes those words are hard when you say enjoying or whatever.

Heidi (01:01:29.701)
Thank you.

Producer Dan (01:01:34.098)
Right. Hey, I've really had a great time talking to you guys about all these tragedies today.

Heidi (01:01:35.816)
I don't know. Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (01:01:38.163)
Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that I'm going to point out is that you know, when it happens to us and we get through them, it's easy to downplay them. And I certainly wouldn't expect to have heard you today even downplay a moment when you said I couldn't say that I've been through like someone who's grown up in a war zone.

Heidi (01:01:54.329)
Yeah, yeah.

Heidi (01:02:07.567)
Yeah.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (01:02:08.927)
And man, trauma is trauma. There's all types, all sizes and decent fucking humans rise to the occasion. And you know what? If you don't, it's not cause you're not decent, but I feel like I'm spending a lot of time telling you how great you are. And I think that that's true. I feel like I would feel very awkward if someone sat here and did this to me. So Heidi, is there anything else that you would really like to get out before we wrap up today?

Heidi (01:02:11.705)
Yeah.

Heidi (01:02:25.079)
I'm sorry.

Heidi (01:02:30.757)
I'm sorry.

Heidi (01:02:38.901)
I don't think so, no. It's just, again, I appreciate the forum to just tell stories. I feel like this is how we heal. And so if anyone can benefit from the trauma that I have experienced and just at the very, very least know they're not alone, then it's worth it for me to tell my story.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (01:03:03.355)
Well, you've been wonderful. I'm humbled and honored and all of those good words that you were willing to come and share, not just with Dan and I, but with our audience. I think that it's extraordinarily helpful. So Heidi, thank you so much for being on today. And terrible listeners, remember to follow us on socials.

Heidi (01:03:23.373)
Thank you so much.

Terrible Scott (He/Him) (01:03:30.311)
We're on Instagram, we're on Facebook, at Positively Terrible. If you wanna contact us, you can email us at podcast at posi If you wanna tell your fucked up story, reach out to us. If you want the decent fucking human tattoo, reach out to us. Thanks so much for listening. Dan, you all, I lose my rhythm, man. Anyway, thank you for listening. And as always, this has been absolutely Positively Terrible.

Producer Dan (01:03:46.926)
Don't do it.

Producer Dan (01:03:51.694)
I'm sorry.